Ladder Loads - How do you properly conduct this test/process?

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Trigger1212
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Ladder Loads - How do you properly conduct this test/process?

Post by Trigger1212 »

Gents,

Long time reloader of smokeless and have never had a truly hard time coming up with a load that would work for me. Getting ready to start my BP journey with the 40-65 and was hoping someone could concisely explain the ladder load principle used to find The Load for for a given rifle, bullet, powder (etc) combination. Just by listening to the name I have an idea of how it works but would like to hear from someone that uses it a lot and can explain the ins and outs of it, hoping the process can same some time, $$ and frustration.

Thanks!

Wade
Woody
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Re: Ladder Loads - How do you properly conduct this test/process?

Post by Woody »

It's only a method of changing the powder charge by a set amount to quickly determine a potential "sweet" spot. No other variables are changed. Each charge is a "rung" of the ladder. Each rung can contain two or more rounds. Most people in my experience fire between three and five rounds per rung. Over the testing session, you often can observe the group size reduce then expand, indicating a potential "sweet" spot. I usually start with rungs 1 grain apart. Once a potential sweet spot is observed, I may load a 10 shot test, or reduce the spacing of the rungs for another test. Say .5 gain spacing or even less. If this procedure didn't identify a potential load, look at your basic round and determine what may be the issue and change that and only that one thing. As an example primers. Then do another ladder.

Woody
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martinibelgian
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Re: Ladder Loads - How do you properly conduct this test/process?

Post by martinibelgian »

The idea is to ID load ranges where a certain powder load variation has no or little POI/group variation- e.g. if 69-70-71 gr shoot into a same group - and it a good one. this means that you can load 70 plus or minus a bit without any major accuracy effect.
SSShooter
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Re: Ladder Loads - How do you properly conduct this test/process?

Post by SSShooter »

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/thread ... s.3814361/
Here is a thread you may find informative/useful. Erik, the OP, is the captain of the Lapua/Brux/Borden high-power team and very helpful to all. Most of the thread is folks asking about their targets, but there is some good info buried in it if you have the inclination to dig it out.
Here is another link with some good explanation:
https://sierrabulletsblog.com/2014/07/0 ... velopment/
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desert deuce
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Re: Ladder Loads - How do you properly conduct this test/process?

Post by desert deuce »

Here is a 4065 load that was given to me when I started with that cartridge for silhouette and midrange. A variation of this load has won several Raton Nationals Mid-Range Matches and a number of State and Regional Silhouette Championships and is listed second. I will start with the original load and put the final load variation last. This was before Starline came to be on the first load.

Remington Brass, fireformed, not sized. 58 grains Swiss 1.5 weight .030 Veg Fiber Wad CCI-300 Primer Saeco #740 bullet 1-20 alloy SPG Lube.

Starline Brass, fireformed, not sized, 55.5 grains Swiss 1.5 weight .060 LDPE Wad CCI-300 or RP 2 1/2 Primer, Saeco #740 bullet 1-20 alloy SPG Lube.

For both loads the bullet engraves on the rifling upon being chambered.

Perhaps for you, starting at zero compression and working up 1.0 grain at a time and shooting groups would work. I never got much past 62 grains before I realized the smaller groups were with the lighter charges. The target will tell you what your rifle shoots well.
Sometimes you get the chicken, and sometimes you get the feathers!
Trigger1212
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Re: Ladder Loads - How do you properly conduct this test/process?

Post by Trigger1212 »

Gents,

Thanks for the info.

SS, haven't read the links yet but will.

DD, what's the weight of that Saeco 740? I've got a Brooks turkey killer on order from Steve. 420gr, 20-1 lead, should drop at .409". At some point I would like to give a dual diameter bullet with diapers a try. Been listening to Jim, Are and Brent too much! 8)

Woody and All, how fine/critical are you on the charge weight? By that I mean with my smokeless loads I will work a load up to the .1gr. Example 36.3 gr of xyz powder. I reload for 17 Hornet to 30/06 and all the usual pistol suspects. With the capacity of those cases .1gr can make a difference. Will a 65.3gr charge of 1.5F BP perform pretty much the same as a 65.5 gr charge? Meaning when testing loads do you jump by .5 grain increments of will/can it make a difference playing with .1gr changes? Thanks!

Wade
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desert deuce
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Re: Ladder Loads - How do you properly conduct this test/process?

Post by desert deuce »

With 1-20 my Saeco #740, I have two, both weigh about 410 grains, one drops at .407" the other at .410". The reason the top shooters in the United States use this bullet is because they win matches with it, not because it is pretty, sexy or cool. :wink:

I also have a Brooks turkey killer. It shoots just fine on silhouette as does the RCBS 400 BPCR.

One day you may come to the point when you will have to decide between what you like and what shoots best in your rifle. :roll:

You can spend as much or more money on bullet moulds over time than you can even conceive of right now then end up shooting matches with what you started out with.

Shooting them on paper at 200 meters is fun but only 25% of your shots are at 200 meters in silhouette and they are off hand.

If you want to shoot silhouette you might start by making up paper turkey targets and shoot groups at 385M off crossed sticks to see what your rifle and load can do. :D
Sometimes you get the chicken, and sometimes you get the feathers!
Trigger1212
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Re: Ladder Loads - How do you properly conduct this test/process?

Post by Trigger1212 »

DD, got the "mould disease" figured out already as I've been casting for many years for my pistols and rifles, just dipping my toes into the BP game.

Unfortunately I'm currently limited to 100 yards in my back yard range, it is what it is, I'll figure out the rest of it at a match, not the best way to go about it but it's what's gonna happen!

W
Woody
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Re: Ladder Loads - How do you properly conduct this test/process?

Post by Woody »

.1 or .2 grain is undetectable on the target or through the chrono. Usually .5 grain is as close as you have to get, but there are always the exception.

Woody
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hepburnman
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Re: Ladder Loads - How do you properly conduct this test/process?

Post by hepburnman »

In doing ladder testing, and increasing powder charges (and compression), don't stop at the first accurate load but continue with more powder (more compression) almost all the way up until the case starts to bulge and wont chamber fully. I have found (for my three rifles) that there are two "sweet spots" for good accuracy. In my case (1) 45-70 and (2) 40-65 rifles, that I had best accuracy at 63 gr and 70 gr (I could go all the way about 76 gr before chambering issues).

I therefore use the 63 gr load, with a 410 gr bullet (or 500 gr) for chickens, and the 70 gr. load, with a 430 gr (or 560 gr) bullet for everything else.

I use the same primers (Fed 215M) and Swiss 1.5Fg for all my loads.
gunlaker
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Re: Ladder Loads - How do you properly conduct this test/process?

Post by gunlaker »

I have to confess that I use basically the same 58gr load as Zack posted ( the one with Remington brass ). I didn't do any real load development at all. I think I tried a couple of different powder charges once and then just went back to 58gr. It's extremely accurate.

The only trouble I've had with the Saeco #740 is that our rams are set such that they just barely fall. By that I mean that they slide to the back of the rail and usually land in a vertical position leaning against the rail. Feels risky :-)

I will also admit that I've stolen load data from others and, for my Shiloh's, it just works. My load for the same rifle but with the BACO 409400M4 bullet were "borrowed" from another and it worked with zero load development, same with the long range load for my .45-2.4".

Chris.
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desert deuce
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Re: Ladder Loads - How do you properly conduct this test/process?

Post by desert deuce »

Load Piracy is not only respectable but expected on this forum. :D

Why reinvent the wheel when a proven starting point is available?

Just as 58 grains was a starting point 55.5 grains was the end point for two particular rifles yet 58 grains remained the choice for a third. :wink:

The recommendation remains the same: Information found here is very useful, however, the target is the final arbiter.
Sometimes you get the chicken, and sometimes you get the feathers!
TAA
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Re: Ladder Loads - How do you properly conduct this test/process?

Post by TAA »

I’ve read about the ladder load concept several times over the years. Now I plan to give it a try at 200-meters. All of my previous load testing has been done at 200-meters so when I compare groups after shooting them, I have a basis for comparison.

My visualization of this might be too literal. I see a handful of aiming points, equally spaced vertically on a large sheet of paper. The lightest powder charge is assigned to the bottom “rung” (aiming point). As you move up the ladder, each progressive rung is assigned to the next stiffest powder charge. When done shooting, the groups on each ladder rung is measured to determine where to go next.

It would seem that this is a load development technique more suited to a scoped rifle. An iron sighted rifle would need large aiming points, resulting in a fairly tall “ladder”. But maybe that tall ladder could be cut into thirds and the three (or more) ladder segments arranged side by side? It would be good to stay at the bench, trying to maintain the same shooting position throughout the shooting, rather than interrupt the shooting to walk downrange and replace targets.

Waiting for temps to rise and some of the snow to melt…..

Tom
martinibelgian
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Re: Ladder Loads - How do you properly conduct this test/process?

Post by martinibelgian »

Actually, no. You use the same aiming point, just increase the loads, change targets as needed - and keep track of individual shots. POI will change as you move through loads, but the goal is to ID 'clusters' with different powder loads (3 loads or more), giving a sweet spot. If you move POA, you won't notice that. 3 shots per load should be enough - 3 perfectly aimed and fired shots, of course...
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Shadow 4
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Re: Ladder Loads - How do you properly conduct this test/process?

Post by Shadow 4 »

gunlaker wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:38 am I have to confess that I use basically the same 58gr load as Zack posted ( the one with Remington brass ). I didn't do any real load development at all. I think I tried a couple of different powder charges once and then just went back to 58gr. It's extremely accurate.

I will also admit that I've stolen load data from others and, for my Shiloh's, it just works. My load for the same rifle but with the BACO 409400M4 bullet were "borrowed" from another and it worked with zero load development, same with the long range load for my .45-2.4".

Chris.
:lol: :lol: "Borrowed" :lol: :lol:

I've got a "Borrowed" load also, maybe :roll:

I used that same bullet (409400M4 bullet), in the girls 40-65, shot very well, twas seated out quite a ways though, to many people pissing & moaning about getting dirt in the lube, shut up, that dirt, if any, is extra lapping compound :roll: moved to the 420 version last spring, still tweeking on it though
desert deuce wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:19 am Load Piracy is not only respectable but expected on this forum. :D

Why reinvent the wheel when a proven starting point is available?
Exactly, that's why I'm not interested in any new wheels for the rifle I acquired, it's already working, I'm going to go enjoy shooting it, not developing a new load, trust me, I could not possibly do more load testing than has already been done for it, I could quit my job & still not do that much testing :shock:
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