The Money/Metford nose profile vrs the Elliptical nose.

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Kenny Wasserburger
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The Money/Metford nose profile vrs the Elliptical nose.

Post by Kenny Wasserburger »

Fellow long Range Shooters, there are often times when I truly miss the sagacious advice of our brother Dan Theodore.

The topic is the Money nose vrs the Elliptical Nose, for our long range bullets. We all know the limitations of using the various alloys, nose setback, or even slumping.

All things being equal I believe we reach a point of diminishing returns on bullet alloys, particularly that of a binary alloy containing lead/tin. My current alloy is of 16-1 from John Walters, which I add 120 Grains per pound of that alloy, 95/5 solder being 95 % tin and 5% antimony. For All practical purposes this is my 14.5-1 alloy I call it.

In my Dual Diameter bullet that was designed by committee, Distant thunder, and Arnie and myself this alloy has been fairy successful in the past few years at Alliance and the Wasserburger Matches. This bullet has an elliptical nose. This bullet weighs in at 547 grs and has only been used in my 25# 45-110 with a 16-1 twist rate.

In 2021 at my match shot my best score ever in Creedmoor. Last year I shot a very good Mile score with irons. And a good Creedmoor score these past several years. Granted I have some experience at my own range that often translates into good scores. The mile match almost necessitates iron sight usage which hampers my scores there I feel, with my eyes being the limiting factor.

In 2018 the last year a Target rifle nationals was fired at Raton, I won the scope Midrange Prone National title, with the top score fired at 600 yards of anyone including Gullo. I was 3rd at 300 and 3rd at 500. I was using my Paul Jones Money PP 450023 PP mould cut for The 25# Shiloh. This bullet comes in at 534 or so grains in my alloy, so it is lighter than my DDPPE bullet.

Anecdotal evidence aside here, has anyone done an extensive study of the two bullet shapes on paper at distance? I know Brent D favors the Prolate nose design, which is quite Similar to the Elliptical nose shape. The money Nose is similar to the Metford bullet.

Here is were ole Dan would have stepped in and while not above using Anecdotal evidence, he would often temper that with considerable empirical experience behind his offered opinions. Yet he would question such evidence himself until he had proven it. Dan was not above applying such testing in a high level match, something I long admired him for. It is something that Jimbo and myself have often been known to do. As they say, “no guts, no glory.”

As a side note these past two weeks, after reading Rick Moritz’s excellent article on primer wads in the BPCR News, I dropped that step from my loading procedure for my match and Big Whiskey. I had also done the same for the Smithmoor Cup at Carpenter. My scores were still comparable to my previous silhouette scores. Leading me to believe if anything at midrange matches, that I need to focus more on follow through than anything else. Though in the paper matches I did rather respectable that week both in big bore wand the historical match with my 22 shooting the highest paper score.

However in the 1000 yard match and 900 yards plus the mile I had several shots go high on my string of fire, I had no primer wad in these long range loads where as I normally do. We had switching tail winds at the mile which added to the vertical issues I am certain of that as everyone else had the same problems.

I recovered 2 of my only 4 outer hits at the mile, one demonstrating a very slight angle of impact and the other for all practical purposes a nearly straight on hit. :shock: The mile was won with one of the lowest scores ever shot in that match a side wind often meant a 18 to 24 MOA windage correction. :shock: I will be returning to using primer wads in my long range loads, my chronograph data and many previous years Empirical evidence says it has effect at the longer ranges.

I am looking for some empirical evidence on the Money vrs the Elliptical Nose, more than mere anecdotal evidence.

“Paper don’t lie “ Dan Was fond of saying, I rather tend to agree with that statement.

Brass is in my tumbler, I have plenty of DDPPE bullets on hand and could fire up the pot to make some of my Jones PP Bullets for Dora.

KW
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Re: The Money/Metford nose profile vrs the Elliptical nose.

Post by JonnyV »

A guy would have to come up with a standard type test that several others could duplicate. I had a really excellent ladder test today with the 459540M3 mold, but one test don't mean $#!t...for it to be considered true "evidence" it has to be shown as repeatable on demand.
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Re: The Money/Metford nose profile vrs the Elliptical nose.

Post by Kenny Wasserburger »

I have tons of ladder and paper tests for money and Elliptical bullets at 200-300 yards. And then went on to test at 600 yards where things began to get interesting. Some good loads at 200 even 300 fell apart at 600 yards, with some loads clearly demonstrating better accuracy than others at 600 yards.

Then on to 800 yard testing, finding good conditions to get some good data can prove difficult, but some loads in conditions shot better than others. Some of those loads shot poorly at 900 though :shock:

900 is its own kind of animal I firmly believe this. Then 1000 yards can be a whole different game entirely.

Ladder tests at short ranges only paint a part of the picture, they are necessary I firmly believe but tell but a small bit of the longrange story.

PS I ain’t talking about gongs or rocks here I am talking what keeps you in the middle of the black, the majority of the time and some loads are more predictable than others.

Kenny W.
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Re: The Money/Metford nose profile vrs the Elliptical nose.

Post by Don McDowell »

Day in and day out I’ve found the metford / money nose profile pretty hard to top at all distances
Steve Brooks original postel nose can preform quite well, altho I thinks it’s more akin the the Remington and sharps long range bullet profile. Especially after acquiring the postel bullet mould that Buffalo Arms copied from bullets cast from an original Ideal mould
Some reference to the success of long pointed bullets can be found in WH D Dodges writings on trials getting a good bullet for long range in the 30 US when he wrote he finally fell back and scaled down the long pointed bullets that worked so well in the 44 and 45 caliber creedmoor rifles
I seldom start load testing at anything less than 600 yards and progress back to 8,900 and 1000 yards
I do shoot on my steel target but repaint it before starting the next yardage and doucument the groups by photo graph
While 900 can be tuff I’m of the mind it comes down to follow thru and just as important if not more so is proper stick height adjustment and body position behind the sticks to help alleviate horizontal problems that the wind doesn’t always cause
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Re: The Money/Metford nose profile vrs the Elliptical nose.

Post by Coltsmoke »

I can only speak of the bullets at the ram line. After a lot of work tuning a load for both bullets in PP .40 Ballard rifle I found accuracy to be the same. The PJ Money bullet took 3 minutes less elevation, so that was my choice. Both loads shot at the same time.
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Re: The Money/Metford nose profile vrs the Elliptical nose.

Post by martinibelgian »

Kenny Wasserburger wrote: Wed Sep 13, 2023 5:11 pm I have tons of ladder and paper tests for money and Elliptical bullets at 200-300 yards. And then went on to test at 600 yards where things began to get interesting. Some good loads at 200 even 300 fell apart at 600 yards, with some loads clearly demonstrating better accuracy than others at 600 yards.

Then on to 800 yard testing, finding good conditions to get some good data can prove difficult, but some loads in conditions shot better than others. Some of those loads shot poorly at 900 though :shock:

900 is its own kind of animal I firmly believe this. Then 1000 yards can be a whole different game entirely.

Ladder tests at short ranges only paint a part of the picture, they are necessary I firmly believe but tell but a small bit of the longrange story.

PS I ain’t talking about gongs or rocks here I am talking what keeps you in the middle of the black, the majority of the time and some loads are more predictable than others.

Kenny W.
Yes,
completely agree. While I don't have much opportunity to shoot at 1,000, I remember shooting at Bisley with my reference load (groove dia. PP Metford bullet) which was competitive at 900, but completely fell apart at 1,000. 540gr 16-1 alloy in front of 87grs Swiss Fg.

The BACO bore-dia. I have was less accurate at 900, but shot well at 1,000. Of course, more powder here: 97grs of Swiss 1 1/2Fg

Since then I shortened the groove-dia. bullet a bit, but I haven't had the opportunity to shoot it at 1,000 since, with the covid thing. Maybe this year. Where I live, 400m is the best I can do, and even that is not easy/frequent, so practice is an issue.
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Re: The Money/Metford nose profile vrs the Elliptical nose.

Post by bpcr shooter »

I have been shooting the elliptical for quite a few years, one that the late Jim Kluskins made for me did quite well in my 45-100, but failed in my 45-90. I then had another DDPP designed by Arnie, and it seemed to shoot well but I could never get that perfect load figured out with it. I now have switched to a parallel sided money/medford bullet and Im in the beginning phase of testing but, its proving to be pretty good.....in 3 different rifles so far. I have witnessed that bullet do VERY well in winds that the rest of us struggled in the past couple years at Lodi. On a side note I still run a DDPPE bullet in my 38-55, 40-82 and they shoot fantastic, holding sub moa out past 500yd, if I do my part. I have another DDPPE bullet for my winter project for my 40-70 that looks to be a winner as well.

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Re: The Money/Metford nose profile vrs the Elliptical nose.

Post by Kenny Wasserburger »

bpcr shooter wrote: Thu Sep 14, 2023 6:33 am I have been shooting the elliptical for quite a few years, one that the late Jim Kluskins made for me did quite well in my 45-100, but failed in my 45-90. I then had another DDPP designed by Arnie, and it seemed to shoot well but I could never get that perfect load figured out with it. I now have switched to a parallel sided money/medford bullet and Im in the beginning phase of testing but, its proving to be pretty good.....in 3 different rifles so far. I have witnessed that bullet do VERY well in winds that the rest of us struggled in the past couple years at Lodi. On a side note I still run a DDPPE bullet in my 38-55, 40-82 and they shoot fantastic, holding sub moa out past 500yd, if I do my part. I have another DDPPE bullet for my winter project for my 40-70 that looks to be a winner as well.

matt
Matt that is the sort of empirical evidence I was thinking about, hopefully Martinibelgian gets a chance to wring out his bullet. Don’s experiences are worth noting also. Hopefully more weigh in.

Kenny W.
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Re: The Money/Metford nose profile vrs the Elliptical nose.

Post by ian45662 »

I have shot both designs at long range and do prefer the money. Not sure if that helps you personally but I have also shot both bullets with the labradar and have calculated the B.C. Of the two PP projectiles that I shoot. The money bullet had a slightly higher B.C. Than the elliptical did. Not a bunch higher but it was higher.
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Re: The Money/Metford nose profile vrs the Elliptical nose.

Post by JonnyV »

Does anyone think that maybe the rate of twist would play a big part in this?
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Re: The Money/Metford nose profile vrs the Elliptical nose.

Post by Kenny Wasserburger »

ian45662 wrote: Thu Sep 14, 2023 8:43 am I have shot both designs at long range and do prefer the money. Not sure if that helps you personally but I have also shot both bullets with the labradar and have calculated the B.C. Of the two PP projectiles that I shoot. The money bullet had a slightly higher B.C. Than the elliptical did. Not a bunch higher but it was higher.

Ian, that’s hard scientific proof, and it’s enlightening and quite satisfying to hear about. Good old numbers are something to take into account absolutely. I best get a pot fired up to cast a bunch of my Jones Money for Dora.

Quite interesting that the less sharp nose profile did a tad better in the BC department than the elliptical. This reinforces my growing opinion that at our velocity’s we shoot at, we can’t take advantage of the more pointed profile. Maybe a Dual Diameter bullet is in the offing with a Money nose instead of an elliptical? The best of both worlds, Arnie what say you?

Kenny Wasserburger
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Re: The Money/Metford nose profile vrs the Elliptical nose.

Post by Don McDowell »

I don't think the twist has anything to do with preference in nose shape, but it certainly plays a huge part with the length of bullet that will shoot well.
It's more akin to what we see in smokeless centerfire, one rifle that will shoot bug hole groups with bullet x and powder charge y, will be spray and pray in another rifle of the same chambering and twist..
When you get really serious about finding that x ring accuracy it involves a lot of research and testing, and yes in the case of bpcr rifles, you will end up with a 3 shelve kitchen cabinet in the man cave overflowing with moulds.
But it's like my wife tells me, 200$ for a new mould is a hell of a lot cheaper than 3000 for a new rifle. :lol:
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Re: The Money/Metford nose profile vrs the Elliptical nose.

Post by Kenny Wasserburger »

Don McDowell wrote: Thu Sep 14, 2023 9:16 am I don't think the twist has anything to do with preference in nose shape, but it certainly plays a huge part with the length of bullet that will shoot well.
It's more akin to what we see in smokeless centerfire, one rifle that will shoot bug hole groups with bullet x and powder charge y, will be spray and pray in another rifle of the same chambering and twist..
When you get really serious about finding that x ring accuracy it involves a lot of research and testing, and yes in the case of bpcr rifles, you will end up with a 3 shelve kitchen cabinet in the man cave overflowing with moulds.
But it's like my wife tells me, 200$ for a new mould is a hell of a lot cheaper than 3000 for a new rifle. :lol:
Some wisdom there…….. :wink:

Kenny Wasserburger
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Re: The Money/Metford nose profile vrs the Elliptical nose.

Post by Don McDowell »

Thanks KW.
One thing I can say for sure from having spent more years messing with the dual diameter bullets than anybody, that's a whole nuther can of worms from straight sided patched or grease groove.
There's a point where you cross the balance line between base length and nose length that will cause all manner of grief, or joy.. Base diameter plays another huge part, and it runs headlong into the same thing as getting into the diameter of a straight sided bullet, in that there's no place for the displaced alloy from the lands to go except over the base causing finning. Base major diameter being to long will give you some weird stuff, and to short will give you and unbalanced bullet there is probably no hope for especially when you get past 300 yards.
I'm getting pretty well convinced that the wad stack under the dual diameter isn't quite as critical as with a straight sided bullet. Mostly leaning towards less is better. I'm still working on that when I get the chance, but so far consistent groups are indicating that to be the case
Paper thickness I'm still on the fence about, and believe that will come down to chamber leads and diameters.
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Re: The Money/Metford nose profile vrs the Elliptical nose.

Post by bpcr shooter »

Kenny Wasserburger wrote: Thu Sep 14, 2023 8:30 am
bpcr shooter wrote: Thu Sep 14, 2023 6:33 am I have been shooting the elliptical for quite a few years, one that the late Jim Kluskins made for me did quite well in my 45-100, but failed in my 45-90. I then had another DDPP designed by Arnie, and it seemed to shoot well but I could never get that perfect load figured out with it. I now have switched to a parallel sided money/medford bullet and Im in the beginning phase of testing but, its proving to be pretty good.....in 3 different rifles so far. I have witnessed that bullet do VERY well in winds that the rest of us struggled in the past couple years at Lodi. On a side note I still run a DDPPE bullet in my 38-55, 40-82 and they shoot fantastic, holding sub moa out past 500yd, if I do my part. I have another DDPPE bullet for my winter project for my 40-70 that looks to be a winner as well.

matt
Matt that is the sort of empirical evidence I was thinking about, hopefully Martinibelgian gets a chance to wring out his bullet. Don’s experiences are worth noting also. Hopefully more weigh in.

Kenny W.

I am currently building a rifle for my wife in 45-70 and may play with a money/medford DDPP (MMDDPP). From what I've been told in the past and currently, a long freebore does not work well with parallel sided PP bullets when compared to DDPP bullets.

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