Do you need a 900 yard Load?

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Would the Hemispherical Flat Base model give a better picture of what the bullet is doing versus the G1 model?
http://www.geoffrey-kolbe.com/HFB-projectile.htm

Good question, and I do not have an answer. That model shows up similar to the Original government Bullet nose. From past experiences shooting an original 1881 Arsenal bullet from a Paul Jones mould that I won at Pala CA many years ago. It requires considerably more elevation than my Same loads with the NASA or Money bullet in my 45-110 using the same charge and wad combo. The bullet was originally designed to smash bone and meat to shoot through horses, from the trapdoor. I was interested enough to design a pp mould with this nose profile for hunting. It’s offered by BACO and is fairly popular. Designed to shoot in a fouled barrel, using thick paper and a large amount of grease cookie behind it, the diameter is .441. It’s proven successful on big game under 200 yards. But it’s no target bullet. Too much bump up is required, I tried a .441 bullet once in competition, it was a failure. This round nose though at .445 or .446 diameter might be a horse of a different color then. This nose design abet in grease groove came about from the Sandy Hook tests. That took place after Creedmoor shooting had become rather dormant. In the afore mentioned PP, it would be closer to the original Sharps long range bullet than compared to today’s money/Metford nose profile. I am not curious enough to drop the $215 for a mould. Due to its shape a patch would be required the full length to where the nose radius begins. Otherwise it would lead.

Though I believe plenty of National Guard units spent range time with this bullet in the 45-70. Though a modified 45-90 Trapdoor marksman model was fielded at Sandy Hook. It does seem to have lost favor over the years for long range competition. Yet remains a favorite for hunting even in solid form for Dangerous Game. That was my reasoning behind my .441 design close shots and decent hunting accuracy on tough critters. At one time before my accident, I had planned on a Cape buffalo hunt using that bullet in my 45-110 business rifle. I probably would have added some antimony to the alloy to toughen it up some. Though I did test it at 10-1 and had good accuracy. At 16-1 it busted a Buffalo rib and passed through more than 10 inches of Buffalo spinal column, resulting in a nearly instantaneous kill. That was with the 1881 Jones greaser.

So long story short, that bullet model is intriguing, I haven’t the mental agility or facilities to effectively integrate it into any ballistic program.

Plugging my muzzle velocities into the G1 programs the drops at 800-1000 yards are always within .5 MOA. When entering a BC of .460 they are virtually dead on, at .425 they are close as I said, within .5 MOA. That’s all entirely dependent on the conditions for a given day.

I think the money or even the elliptical nose are closer to the G1 model than the flat base model. I maybe wrong, but my experiences say otherwise. Though it’s very thought provoking. Geez I wish I was smarter. lol

My real conundrum is why at times do our bullets go crazy at the PIP and other times they do not. It’s all about down range conditions, I know that. But is it at a specific down range velocity, partially due to alloy and speed can it be mitigated, or even avoided? Zack’s experience says it can be. Did Zack move the PIP to a point that it is no longer effecting his scores due to alloy and speed, I would say so.

We do not see The PIP in modern cartridges such as my Swede 140 gr bullets or the 190’s I used in my model 70 06 bolt gun. They were still traveling too fast at 1000 yards.

My labradar is going to get a workout this spring.

Kenny Wasserburger

[Don McDowell]

The copy of the original postell with the beveled base nose profile is very similar to the Medford/money bullet nose shape. I have seen that bullet work guide well in 2 fifferent 45-70’s but the one time I tried it in a 90 it wasn’t a disaster but it wasn’t good either, but that could of been due to the rifle not liking as much powder as my other 90’s. May have to revisit it someday.
When Dodge wrote about his trials and tribulations in getting the 30-40 krag to be a 1000 yard rifle he said after a lot of thought he dropped back and scaled the 44 and 45 caliber long pointedbullets they used in the Creedmoor days to 30 caliber it came together. So if you look at the 220 gr round nose krag bullet you say hmmm.
I’m of the mind that the mini groove money bullet may just be the closest low drag bullet comparable the the paper patch bullet.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

The copy of the original postell with the beveled base nose profile is very similar to the Medford/money bullet nose shape. I have seen that bullet work guide well in 2 fifferent 45-70’s but the one time I tried it in a 90 it wasn’t a disaster but it wasn’t good either, but that could of been due to the rifle not liking as much powder as my other 90’s. May have to revisit it someday.
When Dodge wrote about his trials and tribulations in getting the 30-40 krag to be a 1000 yard rifle he said after a lot of thought he dropped back and scaled the 44 and 45 caliber long pointedbullets they used in the Creedmoor days to 30 caliber it came together. So if you look at the 220 gr round nose krag bullet you say hmmm.
I’m of the mind that the mini groove money bullet may just be the closest low drag bullet comparable the the paper patch bullet.

Don on the micro mini money I would have heartily agree. My original Ideal Postell lacks the beveled base, and while the nose is similar it’s quite different than the money when compared to my Paul Jones Mould. The Money’s track record is difficult if not impossible to be bested. My thoughts are a flat based True Original Postell mould with a true Postell nose. With micro mini grooves, it just possibly might be the bee’s Knees, for a medium weight long range or even midrange bullet for the the 45-70 to 45-100. In my 45-110 my NEI Original Postell with a beautiful nose is .461 Walt cut them too big and deep grooves.

I recall that on the 30-40 Kraig development, that the 220 does beg similarities to the old long range bullets. Though the caliber combination was short lived, even bettered at Sea Girt by William dev. Foulke beat all comers in 1900. In 1898 or 99 Frank Hyde had shown up and with his long range rifle showed the smokeless boys up also. By 1903 and camp Perry the superiority of the 30-03 then the 30-06 and much improved bullet and jacket designs began to dominate. Yet in 1923 a fellow by the name of Ben Comfort with a 300 H&H begin’s to dominate 1000 yard shooting.

I got to get back to reading and checking the Proof Copy of my 2nd Edition BPTR book. The pony express made it in ahead of the storm. Now to decide on if I offer it.

Kenny Wasserburger.

[Don McDowell]

This spring storm could be a rip snorter
Eyeball #1 hours under the knife in the morning hoping roads in Cheyenne aren’t a comete skating rink

[desert deuce]

Just let Carol drive and it will be OK

[Don McDowell]

lol will think about it

[Kenny Wasserburger]

JonnyV has been running numbers using his labradar data.

He has discovered the biggest issue, that I have previously eluded too: That of Temperature. All of the old dead guy books several mention that temperature changes required 1 MOA of elevation per 4 degrees of temperature change.

Cold air is denser, thus it requires more elevation then when shooting in warmer air. The JBM Ballistics show why, the bullet is traveling significantly slower through that medium. Warm Dry air is a much less impediment to the forward travel of our bullets. The calculations show a much slower speed @800-900-1000 yards. Thus explaining why we have to add elevation, the reverse is equally true. If you sight in on a cooler day, and at the time you shoot the target it’s now 10 degrees warmer, your elevation zeros are definitely going to be affected by the Temperature Changes. Where the PIP is going to be, that also changes.

So do we load for the expected temperature ranges, that are forecasted for the time we shoot? Or take our best shot and load for the muzzle velocities that give you the absolute least amount of vertical at the farthest range you can shoot for load testing. This was what the old dead guys did as evidenced by Edwin Perry’s book of 1880. Add powder.

The fact remains, and it’s the biggest challenge for the BPTR shooter is the self imposed limits we place upon ourselves. Cast lead bullets, of the highest BC we can used with bullet alloy that reduces the slump of the bullet and its shorting upon firing. Black powder as the propellant.

Folks focus on bullet lengths and twist of their barrel. Which is sound advice, however that bullet’s length will change the moment of firing! Often shortened by .030 to .035! So what might have been marginal at 1.480 is now just under .1.450? Harder alloys especially with some antimony have more strength to resist the shortening. Dan T referred to it as compressive strength. All this is in direct correlation with our bullets performance at the PIP.

Our final exam for the spring semester is coming up in a little over a week, at the Desert International. Then it’s summer school finals, and then the fall semester. Wasserburger ranch and Byers.

If you’re wanting to learn you have 3 excellent opportunities this year. There are other courses where extra credit can be picked up. Alliance Nebraska, and the World Championship of Long Range at Baker Mt. and something called the canyon of doom? Both should be considered worthy places to add to your curriculum, and expand your education on why you might need a 900 yard load.

I have shot alliance for many years, this year attending Baker and getting my certificate of attendance in that long range format is on my list. I have already received my masters graduate course certificate in 22 Longrange there. On to the big bore.

Hope to have class, with many of you this season. Guess what we can share notes and information, for the advancement of our Sport.

Kenny Wasserburger.

[JonnyV]

Yup I wonder if the point where the phase kicks in is simply a shifting line? By altering the temperature, humidity, and altitude in the JBM ballistics calculator, you can move the 900 ft./s mark anywhere from 700 to 1000 yards.

It would seem to follow that a load which might do great at 3000 feet above sea level on a warm day with not much wind would completely fall apart at 1000 feet of sea level on a colder day.

The other thing that’s rattling around in my head is having another look at the JBM stability calculators. Stability is tough to predict. A lot of the calculators use an outdated methodology. Our good buddy Lester Nielson has been doing a lot of work on this, but he’s had to pay a mathematician out of his own pocket to develop a new formula. He’s had some interesting results and it seems like his data is driving with what we’re proposing here, which is to use a higher BC bullet, possibly with a longer overall length, driven to a velocity sufficient to make sure that it stays above 900 ft./s out to 1000 yards.

There’s still a lot of work to be done!

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Yup I wonder if the point where the phase kicks in is simply a shifting line? By altering the temperature, humidity, and altitude in the JBM ballistics calculator, you can move the 900 ft./s mark anywhere from 700 to 1000 yards.

It would seem to follow that a load which might do great at 3000 feet above sea level on a warm day with not much wind would completely fall apart at 1000 feet of sea level on a colder day.

The other thing that’s rattling around in my head is having another look at the JBM stability calculators. Stability is tough to predict. A lot of the calculators use an outdated methodology. Our good buddy Lester Nielson has been doing a lot of work on this, but he’s had to pay a mathematician out of his own pocket to develop a new formula. He’s had some interesting results and it seems like his data is driving with what we’re proposing here, which is to use a higher BC bullet, possibly with a longer overall length, driven to a velocity sufficient to make sure that it stays above 900 ft./s out to 1000 yards.

There’s still a lot of work to be done!

And now, you have discovered why Jimbo and I no longer test loads below 55° for long range. Testing about the only time I shoot at below that temperature is occasionally in May at Alliance Neb.

As for the big long bullets, as of yet, I fail to see anyone winning with them. Extra recoil is all I see as the end result, the only sideways hits I have observed this past couple years are those long 40’s and 45’s.

And in Creedmoor their scores have yet to impress, or win.
Gong shooting again is a different cup of tea. Lots of wiggle room, unless it’s traditional Creedmoor with a scoreable bullseye. Centers count and paper don’t lie.

The key is indeed having the best BC bullet you can possibly have at the PIP, no mater what yardage it happens at plus a handle of what conditions are going to do to your bullet at the PIP.
That’s the real bugaboo…..

Kenny Wasserburger

[JonnyV]

55 degrees…. Even 10 degrees can make a hundred yard difference in the PIP.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

That’s why I wait for warmer weather. The better to evaluate the loads down range potential.

Kenny W.

[Shadow 4]

JonnyV has been running numbers using his labradar data.

He has discovered the biggest issue, that I have previously eluded too: That of Temperature. All of the old dead guy books several mention that temperature changes required 1 MOA of elevation per 4 degrees of temperature change.

Cold air is denser, thus it requires more elevation then when shooting in warmer air.

You'll also add elevation at Big Hill in the morning because of the Big Hill FOG having the range shut down, that COOL humidity seems to make things hard to push through.

I'll never test a load below 65*, I don't like being cold when I shoot, I've got more important things to tend too under those conditions. I'll go shoot inside my heated garage at some bottle caps.
I'll build a load shoot it, I'll just add elevation needed to reach the target I'm shooting at, in those conditions present, I suggest you work on your wind/mirage calling skills, don't know bout you, but, that's why I miss, true story.

As far as building loads for say 60*- 90* & another one for 90* & above, IE, Montana 100yds 166* weather, meh, I don't think your load is the problem, I believe it's 100% more your fouling control sucks like everybody eles's at that temp, & that MT 1000 mirage that seems to run about 45mph, then coming to a full stop, shaking it's tail at you, or, if you prefer, thumbing it's nose at you, then switching to a slower paced 20mph the other direction, but, that's just me. When that happens you best find a different windage setting right quick like before those old SE MT plains winds change their mind. It has been dually noted that the smoke sometimes rolls off those MVA windage knobs on occasion.

I suggest you work on your wind/mirage calling skills, don't know bout you, but, that's why I miss, true story.

and the World Championship of Long Range at Baker Mt. and something called the canyon of doom? Both should be considered worthy places to add to your curriculum, and expand your education on why you might need a 900 yard load.


Kenny Wasserburger.

Work all you want to on your load for The Canyon Of Doom, one doesn't exist, lead goes down range & simply gets "lost", never to be seen, some days a couple people get lucky, most all are not, everybody hears this from their spotter, "Where'd it go, I see nothing"

Maybe you could ask J.B. for his load advice at The Canyon Of Doom, his load seems pretty consistent

[J.B.]

[quote="Shadow 4" post_id=350801 time=1742862330 user_id=6664]

Maybe you could ask J.B. for his load advice at The Canyon Of Doom, his load seems pretty consistent [/b]
[/quote]

... Yep.. "consistent" .. I guess that's the word for it. Three different rifles and chamberings.. at least three different bullets & loads in each, including paper patch over a number of years.. Yep.. consistent is the word and 'that's all I have to say about that' ..

J.B.

[Shadow 4]

Maybe you could ask J.B. for his load advice at The Canyon Of Doom, his load seems pretty consistent [/b]

... Yep.. "consistent" .. I guess that's the word for it. Three different rifles and chamberings.. at least three different bullets & loads in each, including paper patch over a number of years.. Yep.. consistent is the word and 'that's all I have to say about that' ..

J.B.

There you have it, straight from the Roo's mouth, J.B.'s got nine different 900 yd loads.

I think your problem is "MENUTS" personally

Can't wait to see you guys, fun times

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Maybe you could ask J.B. for his load advice at The Canyon Of Doom, his load seems pretty consistent [/b]

... Yep.. "consistent" .. I guess that's the word for it. Three different rifles and chamberings.. at least three different bullets & loads in each, including paper patch over a number of years.. Yep.. consistent is the word and 'that's all I have to say about that' ..

J.B.

There you have it, straight from the Roo's mouth, J.B.'s got nine different 900 yd loads.

I think your problem is "MENUTS" personally

Can't wait to see you guys, fun times

Looks like I got my work cut out for me. Sounds like fun. Luckily it ain’t my first rodeo, but will be my first canyon of Doom.

Kenny Wasserburger