and what's up with paper patched bullets?

[borderdogs]

"That was a good post Constable. It appears bp cartidge is heading the way of muzzleloading. It was popular for awhile but has faded off quite a bit."

Yup, I'd agree with you Pete, Constable wrote a good post. Not sure I agree with you that the popularity of bpcr shooting is fading...........what maybe 140-145 years so far? I can't speak to competition since I don't compete but the numbers quoted are dramatic.

I compete in a sport called Sheepdog trialing, most people think of Babe the movie but what I do is very different. We buy or train border collies to herd sheep then compete with them at trials with others. The trials have entry fees, there is some prize money (not much though), and you accumulate points with each dog at any trial that is sanctioned to qualify for the national that can be anywhere from the northwest (like Oregon or Washington) to the midwest or to the east (this year in VA). It takes at least 3-4 years to train a pup up to a competitive Open class dog (if in fact the dog is of that caliber). Most handlers have more than one dog (more like 4-7 is typical) that are competiting or coming up in training. Most of the really competitive handlers have farms and run flocks anywhere from 30-100 or more sheep (which is a business all it's own!). Most handlers who are competitive on a national level compete in 8-12 or more trials a year in many different states.

How does this relate to shooting and competing in bpcr shoots? Well in the sheepdog sport trials and for a matter of fact handlers come and go. Adter the movie Babe everyone wanted a border collie and most who ventured in to competing realized that there was more to it than just taking a dog to the post and pushing sheep around. Our local club had a membership up to near 500 members after that movie and there were not enough litters around to fulfill the number of people who wanted border collies. THe lower classes of competition filled to capacity at a lot of trials. Then a lot of the people who realized just how committed you had to be to be competitive dropped and so did the membership. Now our membership is somewhere around 240 which is still somewhat high but nowhere near what it had been in the 90's.

I think the popularity may be similar with bpcr shooting and competition. Although I do not compete so I can't speak to that with any real experince the numbers quoted for the number competing is very similar to what i see in the sheepdog club I belong to. Many of the handlers are grey and at least in the 50's if not older there are not many young people entering the sport. It is expensive and no longer a farmers sport and many who compete are older partly because they are the ones that can afford it. Like being a good shooter to be competitive at sheepdog trials you have to commit a lot of time and effort in the sport which many young people either don't have or are unwilling to commit too. There are more than a few old hands trialing who flame young handlers or inexperinced handlers which does nothing for encouraging new people to enter the sport. I assume not too dissimilar to the bpcr shooting compititions but like the trialing sport I would assume there are not many.

Those numbers for Raton are something to be concerned about but like the sheepdog trialing sport may be a reflection on the cost of entering the sport, the national enconomy in general, and the commitment it takes to be competitive.

I for one try to be enouraging to new handlers and to new shooters as well. Like new handlers with their first dog many what to tell someone what they know, in part for many because it is so new to them. For some that may be a pain to listen to for others they want to encourage those new people be them sheepdog handlers or shooters.

Sorry for the long post, just my two cents.
Rob

[bobw]

If you are not M. Quigley loading up a bunch of .45-110s to deal with Marston and his thugs is there any real reason to use paper patch?

Without a doubt the dumbest statement I've ever read on the Shiloh forum. Oldmac you need to learn how to use the search function and do a little prerequiste reading before posting period. bobw ( that is as polite as I can say it.)

Oldmac quote:

"Like I said, lets just drop it...I don't want to put up another 'stupidest question I've even seen on the forum". Read it if you like or claim again you did. I never once accused Oldmac of asking stupid questions that is how he twisted it.Oh yeah, go back and read it,it's all there.

As far as a poor welcoming to the forum I reaffirmed DR Cook's advice on buying a big lot of brass instead of here and there factory ammo buying for building a brass supply on his question 2&3. Then on question #4 he asked about squirrel shooting with a Shiloh and I told him to get a 22 Crossno liner,quite probably the most sensible answer he got. Polite to the core.Never cussed him or made any derogatory remarks to him at all. When Oldmac made his offensive remark about paper patching use comparing it to Hollywood make believe crap I still civilily replied "Without a doubt the dumbest statement I've ever read on the Shiloh forum." If he ever bothered to search any of his questions thru the post archives he would have known how offensive that remark is to some of us, if he did then it was out and out trolling period.Lumpy, Green C, Myself , Orville and others laid out a whole slew of reasons to patch as opposed to gg use, they were all ignored because it wasn't what he wanted to hear.

Later in this thread he says he doesn't have issues with me for what I replied to him, yet I don't hear him telling losttrail ,Constipated Bill Manning, 6656 Crit, or good ole RK the buddy of Cal50 the EXPERT wood grader from OHIO that forget it I was out of line, not bobw.

You libs can't outshout the truth or twist it the way you want, that is why the forum is still here and after 9 yrs I'm still here giving solid advice on how to get stuff done with Paper Patching. Badmouth me all you want if it makes you feel good. I'll still call bs, just that whether you like it or not. And NO I don't consider silhouette shooters the end all of shooting knowledge. You all have a good evening. bobw
"

[pete]

Marathonman;
If you're talking verbatim you're right but here's a couple and the point could be interpreted similarly. I think you know what I was talking about and it's not just this thread.

Don wrote " Paper patch is the historically correct path to take in a sharps or a rolling block for that matter,"

Lumpy Grits wrote "PP is the true history of these rifles "

Now I've enjoyed Don's and Lumpy's posts over a good period of time and I don't think they meant anything durogatory but my original point is over the last 2-3 years the paper vs. grooved issue has gotten pretty testy at times and it's kinda sad because I don't think any of us bp cartridge shooters are engaging in what would be called a main stream shooting activity compared to the modern stuff.

[Don McDowell]

Pete about all I can do is direct you to the 1878 Sharps Rifle Co. catalog ( put this in context, oldmac asked about Quigley, that 2 7/8 cartridge didn't really show up until late 77 or 78), the ONLY lead bullet offered is a 283 gr 45 caliber express bullet in the loaded ammo. The rest are patched. Then we can jump over to the 1878 Winchester catalog, and with the exception of the 50-70 and 50-90 (chamberings that were only available by special order from 1876 to the closing of the doors), if they list a centerfire cartridge as "as adapted to Sharps and Remington rifles" it's a paper patch...

Couple that with oldmacs statement in another thread that he was only interested in being historically authentic and correct.
So that is where I based my answer to him from in this thread.

[pete]

borderdogs;
Well now I know how you came about your alias. Sounds like a real involved sport that requires a lot of time and work but it also sounds rewarding. As far as the bp shooting numbers thing goes. I said that because of the lower national numbers and the lower numbers at the few local shoots I go to. Now maybe that's not an accurate way to look at things but it's just my feeling overall. You talked about the height of Sheepdog competition after the movie Babe and I think there's a similar scenerio with bp after the Quigley movie although the bp has maybe held on longer. I think bp cartridge appeals to an older class because I think it takes time to develop an appreciation for something other than the hip and latest cool stuff.......not to mention the money aspect.
We'll see, hopefully you're right and I'm wrong.

[pete]

Don;
You're right the 45 2/8 appears to be one of those that was loaded with paper patch bullets pretty much exclusively. Along with the 45-2.4, 45-2.6, 44-90 and some others. No, like I told Marathonman I don't think it was meant to be negative. My point was that there were some grooved or "naked" bullets in use and they weren't all express loads.
Sometimes things come up that make you wonder. For instance in Sellers' book he states that the only known listing for the 44-1 7/8 bn" aka 44-60 was with a 380 gr. pp. Well at the last Colorado Collector's show I found a 44-60 with folded head case with the raised ring, Berdan primer and a grooved bullet. So either there's more to the Sharps cartridge variety or it's an 1870's early Winchester round. Either way it was most likely available during the period of Sharps production. I also have a 44-60 paper patch that's a Winchester folded head Boxer primed.

[Don McDowell]

Pete the one thing that you have to be careful about with those old cartridges, unless they come out of a sealed box, a person can't be real sure about the lineage.. Remember they reloaded ammo back then as well. Even Sharps contracted their hunting/regular ammo out, but kept their match grade ammo loading in house if what Seller's tells us is to be believed.
In Roberts Schuetzen rifle book he spends almost as much time writing about the Sharps,Ballard and Remington and other 40 caliber and above rifles as he does the small bores. He never mentions a grooved bullet, always paper patched, even for hunting. Except one little tidbit when he talks about the "younger shooters" think the sharps and remingtons aren't capable of fine accuracy , because they try to load grooved bullets in them and those rifles weren't meant for grooved bullets, only patched and wiping between shots to achieve the fine accuracy. He also states that the rifling in the Sharps and Remingtons match rifles used a shallower groove depth combined with the "bullet seat" intended for patched bullets, but the Ballard used a deeper rifling and a slightly different "bullet seat" and was capable of using grooved bullets. He also goes on to say that not until smokeless powder and loaded from the muzzle grooved bullets came along could the accuracy of the breechseated patched bullets be equaled....

[Marathonman]

Lets be clear about my point.

Nobody is saying that only paper patch bullets are authentic. I've never even heard that implied in a serious manner. For those who have mastered how to use them through hard work they are a viable option and can be extremely accurate. They worked back in the day and they can work now. I've proved that they work to myself on occasion. Once with a 13 pound original Sharps with paper patch bullets loaded as close as I could get to the original specifications. Killed the lead cow out of a herd of buffalo with that one. And on many occasions I've used paper patch bullets in a new Shiloh on big game out to 300 yards. Most of my success with them was in part my own hunting skill but by far what really made them work for me was built on the backs of guys like rdnck, Orville, and others who have done the research and hard work.

Paper patch bullets are authentic and they are traditional and they do work well but so can greasers. Its all in how much work you put into your load development and the quality of your rifle and most importantly information gathered from the ODGs who aint dead yet to guide you in your own research.

Dan

[pete]

Dan;
Oh I get your point I just disagree with it but that's ok I'll just just agree to disagree with you. Of course paper patch is viable option, they have been for a long time and I said in my first post that I appreciate the paper patch approach. You know, you and I have been forum members for about the same amount of time, going on 11 years and I know you've had success with paper and that's great, I like hearing about it...........but I also like hearing about people's successes with grooved bullets. If either are driven by bp in a rifle that's reasonably ... and I say reasonably authentic to the 19th century I'm all ears.
I've even played with paper in my Hartford for hunting but she doesn't seem to like them as much as my #3 does. Maybe I'll try some more or maybe I'll use my trusty grooved load again. Either way I'll use black powder and lead bullets and if I don't succeed then so be it.

[Marathonman]

Pete, yes of course. I meant no offense but you knew that I'm sure.

Good luck hunting this fall!

[pete]

Dan;
Oh yea I knew there was no offense meant just a fun exchange. Good luck to you too. Sounds like you'll be busy this year. Those Wyoming 'lopers probably hate the thought of you coming .

[pete]

Don;
You're right about the lienage issue and do your best to sort it out. I thought about the reloaded issue too but I don't see any indication of it being reloaded. No resize areas, no marks from the Berdan primer being removed and the case doesn't look like it's been fireformed at all. Oh yea there's no doubt that grooved was rarer overall than patched in Sharps and Remington rifles.
Having not read that book I'm assuming by "bullet seat" he's referring to the distance the bullet is seated in the case. So many mysteries about the old days.

[Don McDowell]

No when Roberts mentions the bullet seat in a rifle, he's talking about the leed in the throat.

[pete]

Ok thanks Don.

[Cal50]

If you are not M. Quigley loading up a bunch of .45-110s to deal with Marston and his thugs is there any real reason to use paper patch?

Without a doubt the dumbest statement I've ever read on the Shiloh forum. Oldmac you need to learn how to use the search function and do a little prerequiste reading before posting period. bobw ( that is as polite as I can say it.)

Oldmac quote:

"Like I said, lets just drop it...I don't want to put up another 'stupidest question I've even seen on the forum". Read it if you like or claim again you did. I never once accused Oldmac of asking stupid questions that is how he twisted it.Oh yeah, go back and read it,it's all there.

As far as a poor welcoming to the forum I reaffirmed DR Cook's advice on buying a big lot of brass instead of here and there factory ammo buying for building a brass supply on his question 2&3. Then on question #4 he asked about squirrel shooting with a Shiloh and I told him to get a 22 Crossno liner,quite probably the most sensible answer he got. Polite to the core.Never cussed him or made any derogatory remarks to him at all. When Oldmac made his offensive remark about paper patching use comparing it to Hollywood make believe crap I still civilily replied "Without a doubt the dumbest statement I've ever read on the Shiloh forum." If he ever bothered to search any of his questions thru the post archives he would have known how offensive that remark is to some of us, if he did then it was out and out trolling period.Lumpy, Green C, Myself , Orville and others laid out a whole slew of reasons to patch as opposed to gg use, they were all ignored because it wasn't what he wanted to hear.

Later in this thread he says he doesn't have issues with me for what I replied to him, yet I don't hear him telling losttrail ,Constipated Bill Manning, 6656 Crit, or good ole RK the buddy of Cal50 the EXPERT wood grader from OHIO that forget it I was out of line, not bobw.

You libs can't outshout the truth or twist it the way you want, that is why the forum is still here and after 9 yrs I'm still here giving solid advice on how to get stuff done with Paper Patching. Badmouth me all you want if it makes you feel good. I'll still call bs, just that whether you like it or not. And NO I don't consider silhouette shooters the end all of shooting knowledge. You all have a good evening. bobw
"

Not sure who RK in Ohio is but if he thinks you are an asshole he has a good handle on your character or lack of one.
Glad to see you are helping people & making friends in this thread as how you chimed in on mine.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=20533

It does not take a wood "expert" to say that the wood in the picture is sub-par.