Who is winning matches with PP Bullets?

[bobw]

No Mike, your're the one who needs to look in the mirror here and take a hike from Harlan's thread. He has asked about ppb's and what maybe he ought to market in ppb design for people who want to use them match shooting. All you have done on this whole thread is try to be a troll and disrupt the topic by constantly trying badmouth the paper patched bullet, the use of them wherever and whenever. Harlan didn't post his question so you could run off at the mouth and rail at ppb's he asked a bonafide question about what kind of designs people were using to win with. Have you just once in this thread tried to answer that.????? No, nada just your constant bashing of paper patched bullet use. You're the broke record dude and a flat tire to boot. bobw

[Distant Thunder]

MD,

I say stir the pot all you want! At least when I challenged your 1st attempt you put together a question that sounded like it had some thought behind it, I'll give you that. To say one bullet dominates because of it's less efficient design or at least to ask if it does shows me that you are aware that a PP is ballistically superior to a GG of similar nose shape.

The reason GG dominate (at Raton) is the same reason PP have dominated at Lodi the last five years, more of the better shooters are using them! There really isn't any other explanation.

There are several good shooter at Lodi who are using GG bullets and one of them will win again. When that happens it won't be because they shooting GG, it will be because they are good shooters. When and if PP wins at Raton it will because they were being shot by a good shooter. The advantage of PP, especially with the many good GG designs available, is small at best. If I had a GG load that shot as well as my PP load, and I don't, I would still chose PP. I have a quirk in me that won't let me follow the big crowds, I have to do it my way. When I first shot paper patched at Lodi it wasn't the most accurate load I had for that rifle, but I had already won there once with GG and I really wanted to win again, it just had to be with PP. Even though it wasn't the most accurate load I managed to win the Mother's Day match two years in a row with it. In fact I shot that load for about 4 years at Lodi and Grayling, MI and never placed lower than 4th. I believed then, and still do, that it was superior enough ballistically over the long haul that it made up for whatever accuracy it lacked.

The past 3 years I've had a few issues that have kept me out of the winner's circle, one of which was bringing a new shooter on board, my son, the more recent was a new rifle. This one was built for PP and very well made. As I am learning what it likes and how it likes to be treated, it is showing me that it can be extremely accurate! I do expect to win at Lodi again. Could I do that with my old Shiloh and GG? Maybe, I'm not sure. Confidence has a lot to do with it and my confidence grows more each time I bring the new rifle and it's cool looking PP loads to the line.

Nope, PP won't win the match for you, good shooting will. I have to say however, that when I won that match at Lodi with PP my chest was pumped up right proud! It was special because I did it with PP. I couldn't go back to GG now even if I wanted to. I don't know what I'm going to do when everybody is shooting PP! Probably just sit back and smile!

Jim

[Smokin]

Well, Jim, it's like this: to give the rest of us a chance at the next match you can shoot the bullet of your choice, wrapped or unwrapped, greased or not, just do it offhand while standing on one leg. That ought to even it up for us.

Bruce

[mdeland]

That's actually a good point about getting side tracked off Harlan's question Bob and I accept your valid criticism on that point ! It is a fault!!
I APOLOGIZE TO HARLAN AND ALL FORUM MEMBERS FOR DOING SO! Mike D.

[mdeland]

Sound logic and great post Jim! Mike D.

[Tombstone71]

That's ok mike, we all have fault's. Keep on posten.

Tim

[Distant Thunder]

Hey, Bruce!

It is quite apparent that you have never seen me shooting in the general direction of chickens! I couldn't hit a barn while standing if you put me inside, nailed both my shoes to the floor, and closed the door! There is a rather large hill behind the targets, I might able to hit that once!

[martinibelgian]

I can actually prove GG bullets are MUCH worse than PP bullets - after all, almost every match has a shooter using them ending dead LAST - so they MUST be sh*t, as the guy posting the lowest score shoots them! same goes for calibers, techniques etc. Misusing data can lead to all kinds of wrong conclusions, as happily demonstrated in this thread. As already stated, it's the shooter winning the match - not the equipment, rifle or ammo...

[opencountry]

There are several good shooter at Lodi who are using GG bullets and one of them will win again. When that happens it won't be because they shooting GG, it will be because they are good shooters. When and if PP wins at Raton it will because they were being shot by a good shooter.

Nope, PP won't win the match for you, good shooting will. I have to say however, that when I won that match at Lodi with PP my chest was pumped up right proud! It was special because I did it with PP. I couldn't go back to GG now even if I wanted to. I don't know what I'm going to do when everybody is shooting PP! Probably just sit back and smile!

Jim

Perfect sense, Jim. Now that I have just begun shooting 1K I realize that it takes nearly superhuman skills (and a little luck at times) to read wind and mirage to even stay on paper. It's been a real eye-opener for me. The word got out at the club that I shoot pp loads in both my 45-2 7/8" and 45-2.4". I shot my 45-2.4" pp at a 500 yard shoot two weeks ago at the club range. No one there had seen a pp load before, and I was among BPCR shooters! When the day closed yesterday at the 1K competition one of the head club staff members asked if I would shoot pp at the match in July. They want to see what these 'paper' loads will do at long range. If it's a success I'm certain it will spark interest in others.

Robert

[Distant Thunder]

Robert,

I do not believe I have to worry about a day when everyone at a long range match will be shooting paper patched bullets. In my small pond there are far more than there were 5 or 6 years ago. Many others have tried them out in the open where all can see, some I'm sure have tried them privately wishing to avoid the scorn of the diehard greasers. Not all will be successful and some who are successful will figure it isn't worth the supposed extra work. There are those who deep down inside have always wanted to shoot PP and may have even tried, but were for whatever reason unsuccessful in their early attempts. I fall into this latter group. Those types are the ones we want to find and help. Keeping in mind that what works beautifully in my rifle may not in yours. There are, however several things that seem to be constants in that they improve the accuracy of PP loads in most rifles. This is as true with PP as it is with grease grooved bullets.

1) The alloy hardness must be matched to the bullet design. That is to say some designs can be shot soft some can not. I'm sure all can be shot hard, better to error to the hard side.

2) A good quality paper is very important. The paper to some extent affects no. 3.

3) The patched bullet needs to fit the bore snug, but not tight.

I also have found that a tight chamber is more likely to work well with bore diameter paper patched bullets. This is also true of short or nonexistent throats, they do better with bore diameter PP bullets. The long throated rifles I have work better with groove diameter patched bullets. Very well in some cases!

Wads and primers seem to be more rifle specific. Only testing will tell which will produce the best accuracy. This seems to be true with how one wipes between shots as well. Until my latest rifle I believed that as clean and dry as possible for each shot was the way to go. This rifle likes the bore a bit dirty! I stumbled on this purely by accident. One damp patch followed by one dry patch, which leaves visible fouling in the bore, and my groups were cut in half! I'm still scratching my head on that one, but it has proved true in my testing, retesting and, at the last match.

I have had more failures than successes with paper patched bullets so I don't know everything and anyone with a different opinion is welcome to add that to the discussion. I am only hoping to help smooth the way and shorten the learning curve for those who would like to try paper patching whether it's for match shooting or just because it looks so cool. Everyone should try it once. The true at heart will stay with it until they succeed, I did. The very first mold I bought 23 years ago for my first BPCR was for a paper patched bullet. What a disaster that was! I laugh about it today.

There is more help for new BPCR shooters today than there was then, whether GG or PP is your choice. Don't be afraid to ask for help. I can't recall one time when I asked that someone didn't step forward and help me out. That is the best part about this great sport. Okay, we piss on each other shoes from time to time, we are human, but in the end the vast majority work hard to make this a better sport and to welcome in the new shooters.

Harlan, some of this is directed at your basic question, I hope it is of some use.

Time to climb down from this soapbox and take my hits like a man.

Jim Kluskens, aka Distant Thunder

[Tombstone71]

DT, I have been doing the pp for about a year now and it is just like playing golf. One min. you get some great shots and the next you are in the lake with the ducks
I ordered a 44-90 bn from Shiloh last oct. with a tite chamber that will be pp only. HARLAN, I have no mold's for it as yet and dont know what I need but you are in the running as you make nice stuff.
I am of the frame of mind that I want to have all my rifle's run pp as they all shoot pp better than gg. If all the gg guy's want to rib and joke at me then more power to them but I am going to ride this bull to the end and have a blast doing it.

Mister Zack, I know deep in your heart you want to shoot pp. Its ok, I at least wont say anything nasty to you

Tim Caldwell aka Tombstone 71

[deerhuntsheatmeup]

Fwiw

I am not the forum police! BUT, a lot of you guys are posting stuff that has nothing to do with the info Harlan was asking for.

Let me interpret a little...........

Who here has had success shooting paper patched bullets in matches? Now, would those that respond with "I Have" please let Harlan know what your bullets are shaped like, what diameter, and what paper you are having success with?

I am interested in others load info, I have already saved KW's load info as well as his between shot wiping routine. Please, unless it is top secret, let us gg'rs know what works for you!

Orville, I have your book and we spoke at TX St shoot last year, so I have a grip on what you are shooting.

I already shoot paper patch bullets hunting, I killed a 349 lb boar last year with a patched bullet over 68 grains of 1.5. This load and bullet info came from Redneck. I would like to know more info on what other guys are shooting and doing well with at targets, not animals.

Best, Barvid

[Orville]

Barvid
Since that book was written and even up dated, I have learned a lot more on bullets, alloys, chambers, and what can be done with bullets and the current chambers to make them work like the originals did.

[desert deuce]

That's O.K. Tombstone, all I can suggest is that you start wearing sufficient cover on your head while outdoors. Machinations such as these you are exhibiting can be avoided by preventing the direct ultraviolet rays from affecting the top surface of the cranium.

That's O.K., though, when you get that other half bubble off center I will take you to the VA for evaluation and therapeutic intervention, free of charge.

[DAVE ROELLE]

Barvid i agree------------------currently i'm working with a 0.444 BACO Creedmore-------------70 grains of 1 1/2, 0.14 grease cooky --.06 gasket material wad over powder, milk carton wad under the bullet----0.0017 tracing paper from the local Hobby Lobby----its called Masters Touch and i think its a little too tough, i don't always get full cutting of the patch------its working pretty well shooting silhouettes-----still a lot more work to do with the paper and bullet diameter---------I have had some success with the same load this time 80 grains of 1 1/2 in our 821 yard buffalo matches.

The bullet "to recap" is the Creedmore at 520 grains using 30/1

When i settle on a paper that shreds more uniformly i'll see about another bullet ---probably the Postel

Hope this helps a bit Harlan

Dave

The 80 grain load killed some pigs and a white tail last fall