Paper-patching @ Raton 08

[Steve Ueckert]

Yo D--

Is KW slinging the BACO 0.446" 2nd gen PP bullet down range? Does Kenny have a faster twist than 18" on his Shiloh? Maybe the 5 @ 200 record holder will chime in with details? DT, doesn't your own Shiloh .45-2.6" with the PP chamber have a faster than 18" twist? Is that now an offering by Kirk as an option for the .45's? Which PP bullet are you currently loading?

The 2nd gen BACO PP bullet seems to have a wee bit smaller ogive than the BACO 1st gen PP bullet (0.441" or 0.442") that very closely resembles the PJ Money Bullet through the Meplat/Ogive.

Brain farts or hangover, c'mon now...? Things react differently above one mile of altitude for coastal flatlanders. I know that from personal experience.

Sorry if my questions are old stuff previously covered here, I've been away from this forum for a while making arrangements for my new life which begins in January.

--Steve

[Kurt]

I think you guys are finding out that the least amount of obtrusion the bullet has the better it will shoot..

Kurt

[Lazer]

Last night I had my el cheapo Konus scope out looking at Jupiter. Four of it's moons were visible. (Check it out)

Now here is what I'm thinking. The stars and planets just "came together" for Kenny. Anybody know his birthday? We should look up his astrology chart and see if it says something like this:

"You should stay up late, drink some whiskey, and shoot straight the following day."

I think I'm going to start reading my chart prior to range trips...

Lazer

p.s. .... take this with a block of salt and my sincere congrats to KW, I think it's amazing, I would have been happy with that group at a hundred. 'Can't imagine what was going through his brain when he set the rear trigger in anticipation of the fifth shot.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

that the patch paper is .0015"?

Rich

[Kurt]

Dan.

At the Creedmoor at Raton is there a time limit when you must have ten rounds fried?
And also at the 200 yard match?
What I'm asking is if there is enough time to breach seat a bullet?
A bullet breach seated that is .003 over bore or even patched to groove will shoot better than a bullet seated into a case that just fits the bore.

Kurt

[Lazer]

Dan:

I was surprised to see Kenny's rounds seated a half inch or so into his case. I've been using 3/16" as I thought that's the way it used to be done and Wright suggests it in his book too... and now you write that your seating yours in 1/8".... I was just going to go load some seated deeper (Shiloh chamber .45-2.4) ... and now read your post.

I think I'll still try a batch seated deeper ala Deadeye KW.

Hmmmmm.... the chase.

Lazer

[13Echo]

Lazer,

looking at Kenny's loads and the fact that he's using a .446" bullet I wonder if they aren't patched to groove diameter or very close to it and the bullets are seated that deeply because they have to because the diameter of the wrapped bullet won't enter the bore.

More than one way to skin a cat.

Jerry Liles

[bobw]

Lazer,

looking at Kenny's loads and the fact that he's using a .446" bullet I wonder if they aren't patched to groove diameter or very close to it and the bullets are seated that deeply because they have to because the diameter of the wrapped bullet won't enter the bore.

More than one way to skin a cat.

Jerry Liles

KW has mentioned and or others that he is using a paper that is .0015 " thick, 4 wraps technically would give you .006" thickness, if wrapped wet and dried like I do, that gives you a shade over .005" + the .446" = .451-.452" with a bore of .450". In his earlier posts he explained his deep seating depth, I am sure his patches are engraved as he seats these loads but not to groove depth by any means. Ask him,he has been very generous with his methodology in the past..bobw

[Lazer]

I've asked him about the paper etc.. I'm using the same bullet, alloy, and paper (patched to .452). I wish he could tell me how to hold the rifle, tease the trigger, and do what ever he is doing while the bullet is still spinning inside the bore....

Voodoo? Maybe, but I'll ask him when he's back at the keyboard

Anyway, I've got rounds loaded and set deeper. The 40" gong is loaded and it's off to the range first thing in the morning. We shall see how bad a beating it's due.

Lazer

[Jim Kidwell]

Kurt,

5 @ 200 Rules......
1. rifle must be NRA legal for silhouette and target rifle matches
2. Caliber must be legal for those two NRA matches
3. Scopes must be NRA approved for those two matches
4. black powder or pyrodex are only powders allowed. no duplex or other faux powder allowed.
5. X sticks may be used on the ground or sitting positions, On the bench any type commercial rifle support allowed as long a rifle is free to recoil back and upward freely without the support providing any resistance or guiding control
6. Unlimited amount of sighters allowed as long as range official does not see it as being a problem to other entrants and if it does not delay other shooters.
7. Record group fired in 10 minutes. Must be moved away from all sighters bullet holes. Any questions about six holes is to be ruled against the shooter because he was supposed to adjust sights to bring record group far enough away from prior holes so as to avoid any question of what 5 holes are for record group.
8. In general.......the controlling range officer will use a generous attitude so as to assist the shooter obtaining smallest possible group in 10 minutes.
9. In UK and elsewhere we have allowed single shot BP military rifles to enter this match as long as they are in the spirit and of the era of the BPCR which are used by the NRA rules.
10. The Hart bench rest measuring device or a similar or suitable device is used with a dial indicator for measuring two widest holes in order to obtain three decimal place measurements.

Hope that helps................................JimK

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Good evening guys,

Been a bit busy since I rolled in yesterday at noon. But dropped by the board a few times to check on the posts. I want to thank everyone for the emails and kind words they mean a lot to me.

Details Details?

The Rifle:
Stock Shiloh 45-110 LR Express 34 inch #1 Heavy barrel.
Chamber is the older one SHILOH USED TO OFFER at .480 at the mouth.
(seems too many folks do not know how to load and make proper ammo so Kirk went to the more liberal .482 mouth size).


This is the second such barrel on this rifle, the first barrel was retired at 19,500 rounds when it was thought to have had a problem? It was a cratered breach block that actually was the problem, however Kirk elected to re-barrel it also. It has shot some awesome groups since Day one with Grease and Patched bullets.

The Scope:
MVA 23 inch model with the taller Creedmoor Mounts and the KW Mil-Dot Reticule. 3 tick marks to the MOA for Elevation and Wind-age adjustment.

The Load:
110 grains by weight of GOEX EXPRESS Powder compressed .385. Case is the Norma clyd and FL sized and trimmed to 2.875. Case mouths chamfered with a Paul Jones 11 deg tool, and Annealed after each firing.

A tracing paper Primer wad is employed in the loading along with a WLR old white box primer.

A .060 veg fiber was is used to compress the powder then a .060 poly is set down on the veg fiber wad, last comes a .091 Cork wad to seat the bullet out a bit farther into the barrel.

Bullet: The BACO .446 PP mould cast 20-1 cert alloy from Art Green. Patched up to .451

Patch: 8# onion skin-tracing paper from Seth Cole. Applied wet after damping them on a sponge, rolled on my heavy rubber patching block. Then the patched bullet is placed on a Candle warmer hot plate to dry and this shrinks the patches tight to the bullet.

Template for patch cutting is one that Orville made me, that's been shorten to .900 width by a local machinist friend. Patches are cut 1 at a time on a self healing Alvin cutting mat.

My current Patching Diary shows about a half dozen MOA groups shot at 200 yards with this load before I left for Raton. As many of you know I keep extensive shooting diaries.

Further testing at the Ranch on July 12th showed this bullet had world class accuracy at 800-900-1000 yards and was the final deciding factor in my taking it to Raton. I have the pictures of the groups but was loath to post them due to all the Internet bickering.

Fouling control:

(2) Damp riced Pro-Shot products 2.5 inch patches followed by (1) dry 2.5 inch Pro-Shot Patch. 1 part oil too 4 parts Water is the wetting solution

Used on a 45 caliber Tipton Brush and a long carbon fiber Tipton Rod.

Final thoughts:

After a lot of nasty emails posts and all around back biting, I have been a bit reluctant to post my findings and my methods of late on the trail of Paper Patching.

The famed Paper Patch Guru Brent even had the audacity to post my personal email address on his web site for folks to contact me for Expert advice on how to Paper Patch. However I have my email set rather tight and folks that are not on my contact list go right too a Dead letter-junk email box and are deleted in a couple days.

Brent has a buddy that goes by the moniker Walks up to Pee on the Cast Boolit forum, Walks up to Pee has made some rather nasty remarks about Shiloh's barrels saying that gunsmiths are getting rich replacing them? I called the ass on his remarks, and he then went after my own personal character telling me that John King and Ted Tompkins held me in rather low regard both very good Montana shooters. I am not sure what I have done to incur their disdain but at this time in my life I don't much care if I have? I am not able to aptly defend my self on that forum since Mr Walks up to Pee is a moderator on that forum. I do know that Mr. Walks up to Pee claims to work at a place called Serengeti Rifle company. Mr Walks up to Pee did not know that barrels were heat treated in the rifling process, based on his lack of knowledge in rifle building I can only infer that he, AKA Ric Carter, most likely scrubs the toilets and empties the Trash and mops the floors at Serengeti Rifle.

I had my say,

Again thanks very much for the congrats from all.

The Lunger

PS

If anyone has questions please ask I will be glad to help in anyway I can.

[Ted Tompkins]

I sure hate it when others speak for me. Good shooting Kenny.
Ted

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Ted,

That fella gives good Montana folks a bad Rap.

His bad mouthing of Shiloh and their barrels shows the level of his being, As I always stand up for my friends.

I hope the next chance you get to speak to Ric you convey your thoughts.

The Lunger

[8mm]

I sure would like to get my hands on those so called replaced shiloh barrels...they are the best i ever seen...the one I have I swear is made of teflon, nothing sticks to this thing no matter what loads I test.

[Ted Tompkins]

I would have to say that my Shiloh is second rate to none. I think their barrels are excellent. Shiloh just doesn't build junk. They are damn fine folks to boot.
Ted