True or False

Harlan Sage · Post by **Harlan Sage** » Mon Dec 22, 2003 8:53 am

HI Kenny,

Great post. You talked about 45-90 and reaching 1340 fps.. This year at Reton my 45-90 Ballard #7 load averaged 1344 with 92 grs Swiss 1-1/2 and P Jones 540 creedmore. With a recoil pad (slip on boot) I can shoot it all day, recoil no problem.

Kenny Wasserburger · Post by **Kenny Wasserburger** » Mon Dec 22, 2003 7:54 pm

Harlin,
Thats cool! Now I got only 2 questions, why is Butch playing with FFFg? in his 90? and Why do these guys USE DUPLEX??????????? 1340 is perfect.

I like them slip on Pads too. Works very well on my 45-110.

I Recall a interesting conversation with Bill Knight last year when he mentioned that latest lots of Swiss were in his opinion too hot? and had the same burn rate as sporting pistol powders at the end of the BP era. He wondered if the BPCR shooters would start to have leading issues.

I still am very impressed with the Fg load in my 45-110 just cant get over how clean the thing burns. Clean up with it is easier then my 45-70. And that is much better now too then it used to be with Dirty old Elephant. (the stuff shot some good scores for me but it did leave alot of fouling and alot to be desired in the Speed area.)

Kenny Wasserburger

Harlan Sage · Post by **Harlan Sage** » Mon Dec 22, 2003 10:34 pm

Kenny,

Wendy and I shot the Swiss 1-1/2 all last year in the 45-70 and 90 with very good results compressing from .080" to .250". Wendy's 45-70 with 70 gr. pushing a P. Jones 540 creedmore getting 1260 out of the muzzle. I went to compressing the Swiss instead of going to 3F. I was concerned with the 3F fouling out in our dry hot weather. The 70 & 90 can shoot the 1000 yards easily with Swiss without cheater loads.

Like you said, I don't know why those guys are trying 3F. I see guys using 3F in the muzzleloaders for years and they are the one's with fouling and missfiring problems. I think the 3F is just to hot. I saw your barrel at the creedmore nationals, you have a heck of a load with the fg.
I'm sticking with Swiss 1-1/2 again this year.
Now, if I can only improve my ability to see the targets better.

Texas Shooter · Post by **Texas Shooter** » Tue Dec 23, 2003 1:15 am

To all:

When visiting the GOEX site and looking at all the different applications they make powder for, it struck me that they must have done a heck of a lot of testing.

I was unaware that they sell the Black Powder used in the military for the cannons on Battle Ships. Does anyone know the process they use to fire these "Ultimate Black Powder Rifles"?

Do they have fouling problems? What do they use as a lubrcant? I guess any one of the 9 Democratic candidates could operate a blow tube that big. Since they all Blow so bad!!

(Sorry guys!!)

Is the Swiss 1 1/2 that was mentioned in an earlier post a version of powder between FG and FFG GOEX?

Texas Shooter

Texas Shooter · Post by **Texas Shooter** » Tue Dec 23, 2003 1:22 am

Kelley O.

Here is the initial response I got back from my query:

"You have a chemical equation to deal with. One variable is burn rate as the reaction occurs. It is obviously an exothermic reaction. I suspect that there might be some components of black powder that retard the burn rate (ie explosion) which could be effected by the barrel length. Similar problem to the calculation of energy released under varying conditions in the combustion chamber of a car using diesel or gasoline as fuel. You have a hydrocarbon fuel, and an oxidizer, and in ignition source to get the reaction started. You want stoichiometric combustion. Problem is that there are many secondary reactions as a result of the first that have sometimes big effects, like decomposition products that are very unstable and faster in combustion that the first components. I would start with the chemical composition of the components of black powder, and run your chemical reaction equation to get a handle on how much heat and gaseous expansion would occur in a given situation!
. Prof. Matthews over at UT is head of combustion research studies and is quite good at that, but their use of black powder to operate internal combustion engines has become obsolete....

I seem to recall that the Chinese back around 5000 BC were pretty good at that calculation. Know a Chinaman?

If I were to consider a black powder weapon, I would scrap the black powder and use hydrazine, but hold on to the gun from behind a big tree. Merry Christmas, see you at Chubbies this Saturday?"

Just for fun, I will follow up once I get some information from GOEX. (I hope they send me some) You would think they at lease would be required to send a MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet)

This is the latest I have....so far. Any thoughts?

Texas Shooter

Kelley O.Roos · Post by **Kelley O.Roos** » Tue Dec 23, 2003 1:34 am

Texas shooter,

Any suggestion's you ask, well what you just posted just went, Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay over my head and into the next county

And the answer is NOPE.

Kelley O.

Texas Shooter · Post by **Texas Shooter** » Tue Dec 23, 2003 1:37 am

Kelley O.

Sorry about that.......... It's up pretty high for me also.

Texas Shooter

Timberlake · Post by **Timberlake** » Tue Dec 23, 2003 8:40 am

Ever the tinkerer, I loaded 10 rounds of 45-90 for my rifle. These were not designed to be loads for the timid. I simply wanted to start from what I considered a max load (not pressure) and see what velocity was attained. I used Starline cases, WLR primers, Walter's .060 Veggie, over primer news print and 112.5 grains of 1-1/2 Swiss. Two step compression was needed and I ended up with a powder column about 2.10 inches long. The bullet was my design bore size paper patch weighing in at 550 grains. I used an Oehler 35 P crono. First round out was 1455 fps. Recoil was sharp, but tolerable. I cleaned the barrel after every shot and proceeded to shoot one of the best 10 shot groups ever with paper patch. 1-3/4 for all ten rounds (100 yds). SD was 9. Avg was 1449.

Previously, I had purposley kept velocity around 1200 as I was certain better accuracy would be the result. Not so! Wind them up and watch them go. I realize this is only ten rounds but there is a good indication that this 90 will certainly keep up with the big boys.

TL

Texas Shooter · Post by **Texas Shooter** » Tue Dec 23, 2003 6:09 pm

Wow Timberlake, that's a lot of powder. I was unaware that you could stuff that much in a 45-90.

Can you tell me about your, "Two Stage Compression"?

Texas Shooter

Timberlake · Post by **Timberlake** » Tue Dec 23, 2003 6:44 pm

Texas Shooter,

Compression was very straightforward. Set the Lyman 55 to load a case full of powder, 91.5 gr and compress enough to get 21 gr more in the case. Put the .060 Walter's wad in and compressed again to allow a seating depth of .100 for the bullet. I was actually trying to get 110 gr in but due to haste, I settled for 112.5. Cases were not bulged so I am certain they would actually hold more. I see no reason to persue that any further.

TL

buffalocannon · Post by **buffalocannon** » Tue Dec 23, 2003 7:42 pm

Great Posts! I'm really enjoying reading these entries. So much wisdom out there in black powder land.

Dear Deerhuntsheatmeup: We use at least a .45-70 for jackrabbit out here in the southwest. They have been known to charge when wounded.

Dear Coydogb, Vbull, Texas Shooter: Enjoyed your references to the .45-100 aka the .45 X 2.6" SS. All know deep down in their heart of hearts that this one is the best of the long rangers. Even Kelleyo would admit to it after two or three hits of sourmash.

Dear Kelleyo: Although I still find you slightly abrasive at times, there is much wisdom in your posts, and I look forward to meeting you one day, for I believe I can learn from you. It disappoints me that we still get involved in discussing duplexing with these long range BLACK POWDER rifles. It seems to me that as long as guys persist in using smokeless in
these BLACK POWDER rifles, that there is really not much to discuss.

Dear Kenny: There is, as there has always been, MUCH wisdom in your posts. I'm glad to see that you are still a "born-again" BLACK POWDER man and have continued to turn your back on the "dark side", that is, duplexing.

Dear MLV: Great knowledge to be had from your writings. You were there from the beginning. You and that other guy. I still use 215s because of you, and because I have not yet found anything that works better in my .45-100. By the way, I have also arrived at 90 grains of BLACK POWDER(Goex FFg) in my rifle as the most optimum load for me. I have kept my 34-inch barrel so perhaps this makes a difference. I don't know for sure. Smarter folks than me probably know.

Not trying to start any fights. Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all. I plan to try to attend Kenny's match. Am willing to entertain side bets with anyone else bringing a .45-100(2.6"SS)

Kelley O.Roos · Post by **Kelley O.Roos** » Tue Dec 23, 2003 8:36 pm

Buffalocannon,

Why thank you,and you just have to know fine sandpaper when you see it or is that course

Kelley O.

Texas Shooter · Post by **Texas Shooter** » Tue Dec 23, 2003 11:31 pm

Kelley O.

You said that with , "True Grit". OUCH!

How about, You said that with a ,"Grit eat'in Shin!"

Oh well, I tried.

Texas Shooter

Trigger Dr · Post by **Trigger Dr** » Wed Dec 24, 2003 1:15 am

Sounds like you two are getting down to the nitty GRITty, Hope neither one of you gets a little SAND in your craw. That might cause you to stop SCRATCHING each others back. But then again of COURSE, there is always a FINE line between SMOOTH leather and ROUGHOUT boots.Just keep your noses to the GRINDSTONE, ear to the ground and try to get something accomplished. What a position to work in.
Trigger Dr ( puns intended)

Texas Shooter · Post by **Texas Shooter** » Wed Dec 24, 2003 1:54 am

Trigger Dr.

Touche' Trigger Dr., well said. I didn't know there were some serious punsters on this site. Let's see who else comes out of the woodwork.

This could be a lot of fun.

An impressed,

Texas Shooter