Tang Sights and Spirit Levels

EdwinH · Post by **EdwinH** » Mon Dec 22, 2003 2:14 pm

Questions for the professional shooter. If you have a Soule tang sight, is it necessary to have a windage adjustable front globe sight and why? Second, on barrel levels, does it make any difference if the spirit level is part of the front globe sight or can you have a rifle spirit level mounted in the dovetail of the removed rear barrel sight? For us senior shooters, it seems easier to see in the rear dovetail location. Thanks, Ed.

Lead Pot · Post by **Lead Pot** » Mon Dec 22, 2003 2:46 pm

Ed.>I have the MVA 111 on my #1 Sharps,and get allong with it.That is how I ordered it.
On my two highwalls I have the spirit level on them .I feel the spirit level has a addvantage for long range shooting.
As far as the front sight windage, well if you need more than 140 inches for 1000 yds that is what I get from my MVA longrange,you better get one,unless your Kentucky is good you better get it.My 550 gr bullet with a 10 mph full factor wind, will drift about 120". or 12 minutes @ 1000 yds.
I like my level up front.My eyes focus clear on the front sight Ed.
Find someone with the sight setup and ask if you could look down the rifle.

Kurt

EdwinH · Post by **EdwinH** » Mon Dec 22, 2003 5:29 pm

Kurt, many thanks for your kind reply. Now I have a better understanding of the relationship and need of the Soule tang sight to the adjustable windage front globe. Down here in sunny Florida we are not fortunate enough to have long range shooting facilities where the adjustable globe is needed. However, it really looks nice on the rifle.

I will follow your advice on looking down another shooters rifle to see what and how well I focus on their front sight with a level on it. For the past two years I have had the level in the rear dovetail on my Pedersoli 40-65.

My first Shiloh, Sporter #1 with a 34” barrel is due in here on Wednesday, Christmas Eve. I plan on transferring the Soule tang sight but will need to purchase a fine front globe. What do you think of the Ukrainian sights?

Have a safe and Happy Holiday.

Michael Johnson · Post by **Michael Johnson** » Mon Dec 22, 2003 5:53 pm

Ed, I have two Shiloh 1874s. My Silhouette rifle is a Sporter #1 that I bought used. It came with a Riflesmith Transitional midrange sight that has a limited amount of windage. I put on a Baldwin spirit level sight that I like quite a bit because the level is inside the hood of the sight. It is a lot easier to see the bubble when the sun is behind you. I do not believe Soule sights came out until sometime in the 1880's. For that reason windage front sights were more common than they are now. In September I got my second Shiloh, a 45-2.6 LRE. It has an MVA Long Range Soule with a front MVA spirit level windage sight (for those breezy Wyoming conditions). I will tell you that it is a lot easier to see the spirit level bubble on the Baldwin sight on a sunny day, but the MVA windage sight does have a certain "coolness" factor. The MVA Soule sights are very well made. My two cents. - Mike

Lead Pot · Post by **Lead Pot** » Mon Dec 22, 2003 6:34 pm

Ed.If your going with the soule sight,the MVA 103 long range buffalo has 44 min. of windage for the strong gulf winds.Thats 36' @ 1000 yds.

I put my rifle back in the case when it gets that tough wind.

For what I shoot in my erea I get allong with the MVA 107.

Kurt

Michael Johnson · Post by **Michael Johnson** » Mon Dec 22, 2003 6:46 pm

Let's just say you are shooting in a twenty mile per hour crosswind at one thousand yards. I agree that you could accomadate that with MVA's Buffalo Soule. But, your cheek will be way off the stock. You can make a major part of the windage adjustment with the front sight and only have to fine tune it with the Soule. I may be way off here but I believe having a relatively constant cheek meld to the rifle stock is probably more conducive to accurate long range shooting. Just another way to accomplish the same thing. - Mike

EdwinH · Post by **EdwinH** » Mon Dec 22, 2003 7:13 pm

Thanks Mike for steering me in the direction of the Baldwin Front Sight. It looks like the right answer for my new Shiloh, when it arrives. However, that windage front globe sure is as you say really “cool”.

I have to agree with you professional shooters, when you have a first class Shiloh rifle it only demands the very best in sights. But first I must recover from the purchase of this fine Sporter #1 due to arrive in two days.

I am assuming you all don’t have an opinion on the Ukrainian products?

Ed.

Michael Johnson · Post by **Michael Johnson** » Mon Dec 22, 2003 7:30 pm

Ed, I don't know any professional shooters. For me this is just a real fun hobby completely different from my indoor job. You just need to get to some shoots in your area, check out some of the setups and see what works for you. It is kind of interesting to read about the history of the rifle and the sights that were used. My only experience with the Ukranian sights is that it is taking a ridiculous amount of time to get his repro Lyman 38 receiver sight for my 1895 Winchester. There is Big Timber time and then there is Ukranian time. Big Timber time is pretty good lately. - Mike

Bob Bloyer · Post by **Bob Bloyer** » Wed Dec 24, 2003 7:33 am

Ed,
My Shiloh started off with the MVA 111 front ( w/o level ) and I installed a MVA bbl level in the rear sight slot. I found that from turkeys on out, I had to come off the rifle to see the bbl level which wasn't good. I replaced the front with a MVA 113 ( w/level ) and eventually set up two other rifles with the same. You mentioned you have had your Pedrosoli set up with the rear bbl level for the past two yrs but don't shoot long range in Fla. Don't know if you mean silhouette ranges or target. I have been using the 113 and mva soule set up for up to 1K ranges and it serves me just fine.
My only experience with the Ukranian rear sight is a shooting friend had to shim his with a piece of a dollar bill where the staff joins the base so the staff wouldn't wobble from side to side in the last match of this year. Needless to say, he was somewhat frustrated by this experience. I have 3 MVA soule sights and they continue to work very well with a lot of continuous use. Bob

rdnck · Post by **rdnck** » Wed Dec 24, 2003 8:42 am

Ed--Mike and Bob are both giving you good advice. Each of us has different eyesight, and each perceives the sight picture in a different way, as our eyes process light differently. You will simply have to find out what works best for you.

The internal bubble on the Baldwin and Heilman sights is easier to see under a variety of conditions, and the elimination of cant is certainly important to good shooting, especially at the longer ranges. Yet many shooters, myself included, don't use a spirit level. I don't know why others forego the use of the level, but in my case I have to raise my head too high off the stock at longer ranges with the level. I use a Lyman 17A in the front, and it allows me to use 8 minutes less elevation than an ordinary spirit level, and a whopping 20 minutes less than a windage adjustable spirit level. At 800 yards and beyond, this becomes significant FOR ME. To check for canting the rifle, I refer to the horizontal cross hair in the aperture, and align it on the target frame or rail for reference.

I use the Ukranian sights. I am left handed, and MVA steadfastly refuses to mark a sight staff for a left handed shooter. I have also come to prefer the Borchardt rear sight, as it has superior repeatability for elevation corrections. Yes, they will develop slack, but so have my Baldwins. It is simply a matter of some maintenance. The Ukranian sights are a lot of sight for the money, and work well for me.

Most rear sights offer 20 minutes of windage either side of zero. The extra windage models, to my eye, are just too ugly to put on a nice rifle. The only time I have used all 20 minutes of windage was at Quigley a couple of years years ago on the 804 yard buffalo. I had in 17 minutes on the turkey at Fort Chadbourne once year before last.

Unless you shoot 900 and 100 yards on a regular basis, 20 minutes will be ample. However, if you shoot beyond 800 yards, you will need more than that to be safe. Mike made a very good point about having to move your head to accomodate large windage seittings on the rear. If long range is in your future, you would probably be well served to put some windage in front. Hope this helps. Shoot straight, rdnck.

Kelley O.Roos · Post by **Kelley O.Roos** » Wed Dec 24, 2003 11:10 am

I got to say something here about front sight's. A Baldwin front sight is about the lowest setting sight on a barrel then any around and then the Lyman 17A. My Baldwin front sight's had to be filed a small amount just so they could be installed on my rifle's and the elevation settings are 5 minutes lower, found that out in England. Now on to a shooter head to high above the stock. The head being higher above the stock is normal when shooting longer distance's and is not a fault of the front sight. Think about it, raising the rear sight will cause the head to rise, just to get in the rear sights, sight. And thats not a fault of the front sights height. The only way to counter the head-stock meld or lack of it, is to add to the top of the stock an inch or so. Anyone telling you that you don't need a level for even close range shooting is telling you wrong. Even a slight cant, and the eye has a hard time detecting even a small amount of cant, that small amount of cant will cause the bullet to go left or right more then you realize and then compound that by adding greater distance's. Just my opinion.

Kelley O.

Rickd · Post by **Rickd** » Wed Dec 24, 2003 12:57 pm

Ed. Re your comment that we don't have any long distance ranges to shoot down here in sunny Florida. I have a number 1 Sporter on order that I hope will be ready by mid February (40-65). I'm joining a club in Malabar (Port Malabar Rifle & Pistol Club .. just input that name in any search engine and you'll get their web site). They have a 600 yard range, and used to hold BPCR Silhouette matches til a few years ago when the gent that coordinated Black Powder moved. I've got a few guys that have rifles and want to shoot. I'm joining the club in January .. it's a 3 hour drive from my home in Miami, but I figure it's OK to be able to shoot genuine silhouette. Let me know when you get your rifle, and definitely join the club. We will get monthly matches scheduled in the Spring of '04.

Rick Durkin

Kenny Wasserburger · Post by **Kenny Wasserburger** » Wed Dec 24, 2003 6:25 pm

Ie Check weld and Soule sights.

I have read the thread with some interest. And Saw reference to the large windage adjustable Soules and Check Weld.

First of all I shoot a MVA Buffalo Soule Sight on my 1K rifle and my Silhouette rifle also. A tiddy investment! A touch over $1000. So I sorta can put my money where my mouth is on this one.

Folks mention the loss of cheek weld with a lot of windage in the rear sight in Long range shoots where alot of windage maybe needed. I kinda have to laugh at this statement. Now I am not trying to pee in anyones sand box or start a flamewar. BUT!!! folks that say that, have proven to me that they have never shot long range or any condtion that requires over say 24 MOA of windage adjustment. The simple Mechanics of the sight are a fact when you put in say 35 MOA left windage in with my MVA Buffalo soule you in effect Pull the Front sight 35 MOA to the left to realine the sights with the target! Your Check and stays on the stock, its no different then shooting ZERO WIND! With a Windage front you do the reverse you set the sight to the right 35 MOA then of course when you sight down the barrel you wil pull the barrel left to aline the front sight with the target again.

Most folks forget that the sight on the front goes the opposite way that the rear one does for the same direction of windage required. Windage fronts take alot of time and one must hual the barrel back to you to adjust them. I used to get that one mixed up all the time. Finally got it right with the Zeroing of the M14 rifles, That I did 50 plus of them for the Sheriff Dept here in Gillette.

One way and its always a worry to me is to look down the barrel and if you need left wind you will adust the sight to the left thats How I used to remember the correct direction to go with the sight. If your looking from the breach end of your rifle for left windage you will move the sight to the Rght>>> which is the same direction as if you had moved it left when looking at it at from the muzzle end.

You of course can disagree on this one but Try it in actual condtions and you will see what I mean.

I can lay down on the floor in my house crank in 40 MOA left on my MVA Soule and then with a small spot on my wall I will pull the front of my rifle to the left untill the front sight is on the spot, MY CHEEK IS still firm to the stock. TRY it !!

Windage fronts take time, are slow and while very traditional are a pain in the butt. They also take up Precous ELEVATION that one can put to good use in LR.

Hope this helps some,

We are all just still learning As I say! I have been a student of the rifle for about 36 years now. >>>> Dad says I picked up a rifle at 5 years old and have never put the damm thing down any longer then I have too.

Kenny Wasserburger

Lead Pot · Post by **Lead Pot** » Wed Dec 24, 2003 8:57 pm

Mike I have never shot a long range match other then competing with friends shooting over plowed corn fields at 5 gallen buckets or hay bales,and some were more than 1000yds.we dont have long ranges arround hear.the longest is 600 yds and they dont shoot steel on them that I know of.
I feel Kenny is right I dont loose my ancor with 40 min.of windage with just the back sight,what is the difference if you move boath sights your still moving the muzzel the same distance.I dont have a front sight with windage,I use the 111 Mva because of the low profile to get the elevation.Like I said if I need more than 44 min.windage I put the rifle back in the case,because I cant hold the it steady enough to stay on the target.

Kurt

Gunny · Post by **Gunny** » Wed Dec 24, 2003 10:25 pm

Kenny,

I think that what must have happened in this conversation is some of these folks got windage and elevation and cheek weld a little confused. You are of course correct that you can dial in as much windage as you want and the cheek pressure does not change in a windage correction. However sadly the same is not true with elevatoin correction, crank in some big elevation and this will pull you right off of the stock to maintain the same site picture. As I said folks must have gotten confused.

There is one thing though that I am not confused about. And that is the habit of some posters here to tote there virtue in using American made products. I have seen it posted on more than one occasion how using a true blue all american made rifle shooting all american made black powder is the real deal. Comes to be that these folks don't seem to mind using sights made in the old Soviet Union one little bit. What happened to all of this patriotism? Maybe sights are not part of that real deal, and in the case of sights the real deal isn't so important after all.

Gunny