On a previous post there was a question on how the main guns on battleships are loaded.
My father served on the Tennessee and related the following:
The powder is packed in silk bags. From what I have seen on the History Channel I'd guess it would be in 50 to 100 pound bags.
The shells are stacked point up and could be rolled by the point down the deck. From old film I've seen the shell put on a sled and then a ram pushed it into the chamber, followed by numerous silk bags of powder. Breech is closed and hole on Nellie!
Maybe someday they will touch off the main guns on the Mississouri just for old times sake. God, I'd love to be there when that happens!
Omak
PS, anyone know of anyone making a model of the Tennessee?
Merry Christmas Everyone!
Battleship loads
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Omak Cowboy
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- Location: Renton, Washington
Battleship loads
THIS SPACE FOR RENT
RIFLE:
45 - 70 #1 Sporter, shotgun buttplate, bone charcoal, 28 inch heavy octagon, semi fancy wood, pewter tip, MVA soule sights. 11 lbs, 10 1/2 ounces.
RIFLE:
45 - 70 #1 Sporter, shotgun buttplate, bone charcoal, 28 inch heavy octagon, semi fancy wood, pewter tip, MVA soule sights. 11 lbs, 10 1/2 ounces.
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MLV
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- Location: Livingston, MT
- Contact:
A friend gave me a swatch of fabric cut from one of those silk powder bags. His dad brought it home from WWII in which he served on a battleship but I can't remember which one right now.
It has a bunch of writing on it saying "Wt. of pdr. chg. 667 lbs" and "IV 2500 f.s. with 2700 IB. proj." and "IV 2690 f.s. with 1900 IB. proj." and "NAD Fort Mifflin May 1945" So consider this, it launches nearly a one ton projectile as fast as our .30-06s push a 180 grain bullet.
Also, it is my understanding that the main powder charge of a battleship rifle isn't black powder. The black powder is somehow used to help ignite the main charge.
It has a bunch of writing on it saying "Wt. of pdr. chg. 667 lbs" and "IV 2500 f.s. with 2700 IB. proj." and "IV 2690 f.s. with 1900 IB. proj." and "NAD Fort Mifflin May 1945" So consider this, it launches nearly a one ton projectile as fast as our .30-06s push a 180 grain bullet.
Also, it is my understanding that the main powder charge of a battleship rifle isn't black powder. The black powder is somehow used to help ignite the main charge.
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Texas Shooter
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- Location: North Texas
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Omak Cowboy
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- Location: Renton, Washington
Battleships
Texas, you can see the lands and grooves on the big guns!
I second the "Volkswagon" comment. I was told such years ago when asking about what they shot.
Dad told me you could see the rounds in the air as they went downrange. Volkswagons with a range of 23 miles!
The Mo was here in Seattle for years, but like an idiot I never went to see her. She is now in Hawaii..maybe on Battleship row?
I remember standing over the Arizona thinking that my father had seen those same hills over 60 years earlier. It was an erie moment, sad too as I was thinking of my father and missing him.
Michael, to answer your question, no I have not yet fired the 45-70. It has twenty coats of tung oil and I will shortly polish the stock with rottenstone and or rubbing compound.
All the loading stuff is set up downstairs in the gun room but there just has not been time.
I was over in your area on Thanksgiving with my family to see Chris Johnson and Cindy Pekow.
Tomorrow my wife is off to Wisonsin to visit her brother and family. I'm staying home with the intent of remodeling the bathrooms. Already replaced all the old 1970s chocolate stained fir trim and doors with new oil finished red oak.
I'm waiting for some new router bits to start the new curley maple cabinets. I am going to put a cherry floor down with some black granite that I think will look pretty good on the kitchen and some traverteen for the baths.
Mery Christmas too all.
Semper Fi.
Omak
I second the "Volkswagon" comment. I was told such years ago when asking about what they shot.
Dad told me you could see the rounds in the air as they went downrange. Volkswagons with a range of 23 miles!
The Mo was here in Seattle for years, but like an idiot I never went to see her. She is now in Hawaii..maybe on Battleship row?
I remember standing over the Arizona thinking that my father had seen those same hills over 60 years earlier. It was an erie moment, sad too as I was thinking of my father and missing him.
Michael, to answer your question, no I have not yet fired the 45-70. It has twenty coats of tung oil and I will shortly polish the stock with rottenstone and or rubbing compound.
All the loading stuff is set up downstairs in the gun room but there just has not been time.
I was over in your area on Thanksgiving with my family to see Chris Johnson and Cindy Pekow.
Tomorrow my wife is off to Wisonsin to visit her brother and family. I'm staying home with the intent of remodeling the bathrooms. Already replaced all the old 1970s chocolate stained fir trim and doors with new oil finished red oak.
I'm waiting for some new router bits to start the new curley maple cabinets. I am going to put a cherry floor down with some black granite that I think will look pretty good on the kitchen and some traverteen for the baths.
Mery Christmas too all.
Semper Fi.
Omak
THIS SPACE FOR RENT
RIFLE:
45 - 70 #1 Sporter, shotgun buttplate, bone charcoal, 28 inch heavy octagon, semi fancy wood, pewter tip, MVA soule sights. 11 lbs, 10 1/2 ounces.
RIFLE:
45 - 70 #1 Sporter, shotgun buttplate, bone charcoal, 28 inch heavy octagon, semi fancy wood, pewter tip, MVA soule sights. 11 lbs, 10 1/2 ounces.
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Howard Haworth
- Posts: 74
- Joined: Mon Jan 13, 2003 10:39 pm
- Location: Seattle WA
Omak: living in Renton where do you shoot? I just recived my newly rebarrled 50-90 today and if I can figure out why the rounds that I loaded up do not want to chamber correctly, I will be at Renton Fish & game club on Sunday morning. If you have a chance come on out. I would like to meet a fellow Sharps shooter in the area. Howard
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batward
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- Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2003 2:07 am
- Location: Northern Illinois
Battleship 16 inch guns
I looked at a couple of web locations and found the following: The Iowa class 16" guns used 540 pounds of blackpowder (6 - 90 pounds silk bags) to shoot +2000 pound projectiles. Two types of projectiles: one was high explosive and the other was armor piercing (penetrate a mere 30 feet of concrete). I hope this helps. BAT
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Ray Newman
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- Location: between No Where & No Place, WA
Batward: have you got a link to that info.
Here's what I found out:
"The original plans to build the first American 16-inch gun were approved in 1895, and the first 16-inch gun was built by the Watervliet Arsenal, NY, in 1902. It was 39 feet long (35 caliber), 5 feet in diameter at the breech, had 1-50 to 1-25 gain twist rifling (explained below), and weighed 284,000 pounds. It was tested at the Sandy Hook Proving Ground, Fort Hancock, NJ, and returned to Watervliet in 1917 for refurbishing.
***
“Combination Percussion-Electric Primer Mk XV MI:
This primer was inserted into the obturator spindle at the rear of the breechblock and retained by the firing lock. The black powder charge in this primer was either electrically or mechanically initiated by the small primer cap located within the primer.”
***
“Powder Charge:
“The nitrocellulose powder charges were contained in cloth bags that were made from a special raw silk known as "cartridge cloth". This cloth burns without leaving any smouldering residue in the barrel which would present a safety hazard when loading the subsequent round.
“The number of powder charges loaded, along with the elevation of the barrel, would determine the range of the gun. Depending on the specific type of gun and the projectile used the powder charge would vary, but for maximum range the charge would be six bags of powder (648 or 672 pounds) for the Navy MkII M1 gun, to four or eight bags of powder (total charge of 832 pounds) for the Army MkII and MkIII guns.”
Read all ‘bout it:
http://www.geocities.com/fort_tilden/16ingun.html
Here's what I found out:
"The original plans to build the first American 16-inch gun were approved in 1895, and the first 16-inch gun was built by the Watervliet Arsenal, NY, in 1902. It was 39 feet long (35 caliber), 5 feet in diameter at the breech, had 1-50 to 1-25 gain twist rifling (explained below), and weighed 284,000 pounds. It was tested at the Sandy Hook Proving Ground, Fort Hancock, NJ, and returned to Watervliet in 1917 for refurbishing.
***
“Combination Percussion-Electric Primer Mk XV MI:
This primer was inserted into the obturator spindle at the rear of the breechblock and retained by the firing lock. The black powder charge in this primer was either electrically or mechanically initiated by the small primer cap located within the primer.”
***
“Powder Charge:
“The nitrocellulose powder charges were contained in cloth bags that were made from a special raw silk known as "cartridge cloth". This cloth burns without leaving any smouldering residue in the barrel which would present a safety hazard when loading the subsequent round.
“The number of powder charges loaded, along with the elevation of the barrel, would determine the range of the gun. Depending on the specific type of gun and the projectile used the powder charge would vary, but for maximum range the charge would be six bags of powder (648 or 672 pounds) for the Navy MkII M1 gun, to four or eight bags of powder (total charge of 832 pounds) for the Army MkII and MkIII guns.”
Read all ‘bout it:
http://www.geocities.com/fort_tilden/16ingun.html
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batward
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2003 2:07 am
- Location: Northern Illinois
Iowa Class 16 inch guns
Ray, look at these links. BAT
http://www.battleshipnc.com/history/bb5 ... 16inch.php
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/weaps/mk-7.htm[/list]
http://www.battleshipnc.com/history/bb5 ... 16inch.php
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/weaps/mk-7.htm[/list]
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batward
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Ray Newman
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Batward:Interesting: one site said BP was the charge; the other claims nitrocellulose.
I find it hard to believe that US ordnance utilized BP as a main charge or even as a filler in shells (or later in hand grenades) after the Spanish-American War /early 20th century. Maybe for training purposes...
Wasn’t one of the problems w/ the Trapdoor in Cuba, the Philippines, etc., that the smoke gave away positions to the Spanish who were armed w/ a smokeless 7mm round?
BP is an explosive—albeit a low grade-that is easily ignitable & very hydroscopic.
Smokeless on the other hand is harder to ignite & the primers for the large naval rifles did utilize an electric or percussion BP primer to fire the main charge(s). It is a much more powerful propellant probably less needed to get the same velocity/range. Not as hydroscopic.
It seems that the range of the large naval rifles/sea coast guns was about 23 miles. IIRC, that is just about @ the horizon or slightly over it. Would the Navy still use BP for its main batteries when the smoke would be visible? Part of the rational for the long range fire is to fire w/o being observed. While I realize there is a certain amt. of ejecta, residue, etc, expelled upon firing & the subsequent clearing of the bores by the “evacuator”/compressed air blast, I think that this is minimal compared to what BP would leave behind. Compare a BP fired .45-2.1” round to a White Powder round….
Once before this same topic came up on one of the now defunct AOL gun boards. A poster had a link to naval ordnance source & the site (govt manuals cited) stated that BP was the primer & White Powder nitrocellulose was the main charge.
Still, I’ll try to track down a more definitive answer…..
I find it hard to believe that US ordnance utilized BP as a main charge or even as a filler in shells (or later in hand grenades) after the Spanish-American War /early 20th century. Maybe for training purposes...
Wasn’t one of the problems w/ the Trapdoor in Cuba, the Philippines, etc., that the smoke gave away positions to the Spanish who were armed w/ a smokeless 7mm round?
BP is an explosive—albeit a low grade-that is easily ignitable & very hydroscopic.
Smokeless on the other hand is harder to ignite & the primers for the large naval rifles did utilize an electric or percussion BP primer to fire the main charge(s). It is a much more powerful propellant probably less needed to get the same velocity/range. Not as hydroscopic.
It seems that the range of the large naval rifles/sea coast guns was about 23 miles. IIRC, that is just about @ the horizon or slightly over it. Would the Navy still use BP for its main batteries when the smoke would be visible? Part of the rational for the long range fire is to fire w/o being observed. While I realize there is a certain amt. of ejecta, residue, etc, expelled upon firing & the subsequent clearing of the bores by the “evacuator”/compressed air blast, I think that this is minimal compared to what BP would leave behind. Compare a BP fired .45-2.1” round to a White Powder round….
Once before this same topic came up on one of the now defunct AOL gun boards. A poster had a link to naval ordnance source & the site (govt manuals cited) stated that BP was the primer & White Powder nitrocellulose was the main charge.
Still, I’ll try to track down a more definitive answer…..
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Texas Shooter
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Ray:
Goex advertises that they are a supplier to the Navy foor their propellants. Unless I read it wrong.
Check out:
www.goexpowder.com
Choose "Black Powder" then Choose "Military.
Let us know if this is incorrect.
Texas Shooter
Goex advertises that they are a supplier to the Navy foor their propellants. Unless I read it wrong.
Check out:
www.goexpowder.com
Choose "Black Powder" then Choose "Military.
Let us know if this is incorrect.
Texas Shooter
"Aim Small, Miss Small!"
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Ray Newman
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- Location: between No Where & No Place, WA
Tx Shooter: GOEX says
"GOEX sells directly to U.S. and Canadian Military Ammunition Plants. These facilities in turn process the powder into propellants for projectiles, hand grenades, signal flares, simulation training rounds, etc."
The key is "in turn process the powder into propellants". We need to define "process"--primers or main charges.
Why is it that the USA & USMC utilize a smokeless/nitro based powder for handgrenades (since WWII), mines, arttillery & mortars projectiles & propellents? I never saw any BP used during my 21 months in RVN w/ a 105 mm howitzer battery....
"GOEX sells directly to U.S. and Canadian Military Ammunition Plants. These facilities in turn process the powder into propellants for projectiles, hand grenades, signal flares, simulation training rounds, etc."
The key is "in turn process the powder into propellants". We need to define "process"--primers or main charges.
Why is it that the USA & USMC utilize a smokeless/nitro based powder for handgrenades (since WWII), mines, arttillery & mortars projectiles & propellents? I never saw any BP used during my 21 months in RVN w/ a 105 mm howitzer battery....