Shiloh Rifle Forums

I believe that most paper rings come from brass trimmed shorter from use with greasers before using it with ppb loads. I leave all mine in the 45-70 full length at 2.1+". I also do a lite outside chamfer as well as a vld chamfer on the inside. Both of my Shiloh 45-70's have 7 degree leades done after they were built and done by Shiloh. I was totally confident of Shiloh to do the work with precision and am totally satisfied with their work. I never asked but would bet that they would not work on any gun but their own. It is not an inexpensive deal $80 bench charge and $75 for the job equaling $155. I called and arranged for the day it would be done on the 2nd one, The first one they did when I picked it out off the gun library rack and they graciously accommodated my request. Yes ,I paid for that one too. It really is simple ,time is money and they have to have their guy that normally does chambering stop his production between guns and take down yours(pull the barrel) and set it up to cut the leade to 7 degrees. Now if you specify it done during production I would guess that the cost is different. Just because a guy has bought a few Shiloh's it doesn't entitle you to free work at their expense. My 7 degree leade rifles shoot just fine. They have reduced chamber fouling also. As far as Long range accuracy is concerned I still feel my rifle and loads are more accurate than I am. BFD and DT all you gotta do is show up at the Wasserburger Mile shoot this weekend and strut your stuff cause, 800-1000 yds is just a mid range match compared to the MILE, see you there. bobw

bob, you must have forgotten. I was officially and loudly disinvited from that event some time ago, though I had never considered going.

I'll be headed to Wyoming late next week to chase antelope. For the first time ever, I may not even use a paper patched rifle. I'll probably use an old lever gun instead and try something different.

bobw,

I'd love to come and shoot the mile with you. My match schedule is not as wide as it once was and I don't travel long distances as well as I used to so it is unlikely I will be there anytime soon. Thanks for the invite though.

If you get paper rings consistently and want to use the short brass ,use a light duplex load and the rings go away.

You can't tell much by measuring a reamer what the chamber mouth will come out, you must make a cast to know anything definitively.

... The third section of the throat is the actual angle that makes the transition from barrel groove diameter to bore diameter. This is aptly named throat angle and is measured in degrees. The standard throat angle is 2 degrees per side as called out in a 50 BMG chamber print. For most bullets this seems to be an acceptable angle as far as accuracy is concerned. We’ll discuss throat angle in more detail, however.

In my opinion the best throat angle, if there is such a thing, is an angle that is tangent to the ogive of the bullet at the points between bore diameter on the ogive and the spot where the ogive and bearing surface meet...

http://riflebarrels.com/thoughts-on-thr ... he-50-bmg/

BFD good luck on the antelope. Jim I can understand that you are a busy man, still wish you could both attend. The MILE is a neat event. Lucky for me it's only a 130 mile trip. bobw

BFD should have known I wouldn't get a simple answer you.

MC good drawings now could you make one with a .472 diameter chamber and on the drawing show where the groove diameter .458 intersects the slope of the lead, then from that intersection to the end of the chamber- case. That part of the bullet which upsets into that area will have an angle on it so it will transition much smoother into the barrel then one with a 45 degree.

The original Tollofson gun shot 1.5 MOA at 1000 yards it has about a 3 degree lead

[quote]The original Tollofson gun shot 1.5 MOA at 1000 yards it has about a 3 degree lead[quote]

What diameter of bullet and weight of paper did he use in that rifle?

Orville wrote:BFD should have known I wouldn't get a simple answer you.

MC good drawings now could you make one with a .472 diameter chamber and on the drawing show where the groove diameter .458 intersects the slope of the lead, then from that intersection to the end of the chamber- case. That part of the bullet which upsets into that area will have an angle on it so it will transition much smoother into the barrel then one with a 45 degree.

The original Tollofson gun shot 1.5 MOA at 1000 yards it has about a 3 degree lead

You got one Orville, you just didn't like it.

Then show the world that your chamber can win. Regularly.

I doubt the Tollofson can (or ever did) regularly shoot 1.5 MOA at 1000 yds. If it did, it would routinely have shot clean scores for record. It didn't. Nor does anyone else's simply because there are too many things going on at 1000. But I'd be happy to shoot my guns against any of yours or anyone else's. In fact, I do it all the time.

FWIW,

My chamber on the Hell Bitch is .480 at the mouth, with the 45 deg leade, it's won the mile match, holds the record with 8 hits in 10 record shots, the various leade mentioned, work well, even on paper, and steel..... Having said that, I won't be having one cut into my rifle anytime soon. Until I see a 7 deg leade beat my 5@200 group or my 8/10 at the mile.....with a PP bullet, I won't be changing.

Dora has the .482 chamber, I had two paper rings at Byers....my 2 day score...speaks for it's self... I used a 516 gr pp bullet of my own in .446 in mid-range, if I had not crossfired a 10 at 600 I would of been a 279 one point behind Jack Ordor, mu 269 was good for 3rd.

It's about holding well, building excellent ammo, reading conditions better than the other guy......proper fouling control...... Not a leade. We measured my bullet strikes all in the top 1/3 of the target 18 inches from top to bottom at the last mile match.

Brass fits your chamber....not sized, correct length, no paper rings...shoots.

Kenny W.

When I am pulling someones target shooting a 7 degree lead tight chamber, that clips the 3 inch spotting disc once and centers it twice at 500 yd, then I'll maybe start to be a believer.

Orville wrote:MC good drawings now could you make one with a .472 diameter chamber and on the drawing show where the groove diameter .458 intersects the slope of the lead, then from that intersection to the end of the chamber- case. That part of the bullet which upsets into that area will have an angle on it so it will transition much smoother into the barrel then one with a 45 degree.

It takes a 3D image to really show what you want, Orville, and I don't have that capability.

But, in two dimensions, this is the best I can do.




The 7 degree cut makes a cone-shaped 'freebore' in the barrel steel until it gets from chamber neck diameter down to groove diameter.
From there it continues as what forms the ramps on the lands.

In the drawing, the dark part is the land.

So, the 7 degree cut (shown) goes from chamber neck diameter to bore diameter.

Thanks to you guys who are top competitors and giving an honest answer. Especially BFD and Kenny W. I was told by some "other" shooters that my new CPA in 40-70SS with a 14.5 Twist rate and 45 degree leade wouldn't shoot paper patch bullets with out giving me lead and paper rings. They said I should have a 12, 7, or even a 4 degree leade. Until I saw this thread I had put thinking about shooting pp on the back burner and been buying gg moulds. And those drawings of the bullet in the chamber that Montana Charlie put on here makes sense.
Thanks again.

Btw,

That 3 inch disk Don mentioned, I kept, along with a new national Record for Tollofson Class.

KW