Trends in Gong Matches

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semtav
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Trends in Gong Matches

Post by semtav »

A recent thread got me to thinking about changes we are seeing in gong matches and wondering what others think about them

First is scopes. As the general shooting age is increasing, I'm seeing more scopes being used at matches. Do the sponsoring entities still think they need to be separated into different categories or is there a clear advantage ?

Second is the use of lights to score hits instead of radios. Anyone have any pros or cons about their use?

Third is powder usage. is anyone seeing a trend in winners shooting one type over another ?

Fourth is Prone verses sitting. The few matches I attend don't show that much of an advantage of one over the other altho prone should have a clear advantage..

We held a memorial shoot for Buz Coker in September and chose not to separate the scope and iron sight shooters into separate categories.
The outcome was interesting.

First place was a male shooter with 31 hits, shooting black powder and using a scope.
Second place shooter was a female with 31 hits shooting smokeless and using iron sights
That's about as even as you can get in every category !!

altho we used a red light on one target during practice, I wasn't comfortable leaving it on during the match and would like some input from others that have used lights during a match.
DaveC
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Re: Trends in Gong Matches

Post by DaveC »

They used the strobe lights at the Quigley this year for the first time.

They’re great if the match has dedicated scorekeepers. All they need to do is look for the flashing light. If the shooters’ spotters have to do double duty as scorekeepers, it doesn’t work so well, since they need to be looking at the target environs for bullet strikes, either in the dirt or on a grayed-out target, and also 20 ft to the side, to look for the flashing light, in the event they can’t see the hit location.

As a shooter/spotter, I liked the radios better, since hits could then be heard while spotting. But sometimes the radios would heterodyne each other, giving false hits and accusations of cross firing between groups.

Certainly, having to go from irons to scope has resulted in no quantum leap in my scores.

That newfangled Nitro Powder seems to be getting into the winner’s circle more and more. Of course, a lot of people at the Quigley shoot it, so it may be a statistical thing. Coincidentally, there seems to be a lot of people at every Quigley, from elderly dotards like me all the way down to little kids. Very family friendly.

The Quigley has a lot of categories a competitor can win in. I think a separate category for smokeless shooters, never to be mentioned in the same breath, let alone compared to those shooting black, would help the other BPCR disciplines gain devotees. A lot of people like the old rifles, but for one reason or another, aren’t into black powder. At least not yet.

Being pretty much an average guy, myself (they tested me in College), my progression in guns and shooting went thusly: I was always interested in them; I got into handloading because I wanted to shoot more, I got into casting because I wanted to shoot even more, I was always more interested in the old-timey stuff and its historical associations, so I concentrated on them, I tried black powder in cartridges a time or two with unedifying results, and went back to smokeless. Then, in the 90’s I started reading on the success others were having with black, and, looking for new challenges, tried it again, following their directions, and started having success at hitting stuff with it. Now, I shoot certain rifles and cartridges only with black powder, and gradually am expanding the field at the expense of smokeless in other cartridges and rifles.

I think this is a pretty typical Pilgrim’s Progress with black powder cartridge shooting. In that light, I think it’s pretty unrealistic to demand that any potential devotee to the sport skip all that background, do not pass Go, do not collect $200, and go directly to black powder, or stay out. And then in the next sentence, deplore the lack of new participants in the sport.

Having smokeless shooters in a separate class, but shooting alongside the black powder guys, would show the smokeless newbies that it’s possible to do very well with it, and it isn’t a dangerous mystery that will rust their guns before they get a chance to clean them. And, of course, it’s Cool. There would be plenty of advice from the BP guys (plenty!) to help them over the transition, and there would at least be a pathway open to new blood getting into a sport that is pretty specialized and expensive, and needs all the help it can get. These guys already have the rifles, at least, which expense is a major hurdle; we would just need to lead by example and be willing to instruct those that are interested in trying it.

A friend of mine is a serious mineral collector, helped edit the Mineralogical Record for many years. We went to the Tucson Gem&Mineral Show together one time. I picked up two catalogs. One was the Physical catalog of the Show, and had articles by gemologists and geologists about crystal morphology, where to find the good stuff, etc. the other was the Metaphysical catalog, which had articles by self-identified witches and warlocks about Crystal Skulls and Stones of Power.

I said, “Steve, why do you let these crackpots into your show?” And he said, “I used to think that way myself. These people are idiots, sure; but they’re young idiots and enthusiastic idiots. Mineral collecting is getting to be an old man’s game; bad as stamp collecting was 20 years ago when I got out of it. If one in ten, or even one in 100 of these kids makes the transition to serious study of the minerals, I’ll call it a win.”

Don’t mean to throw any bombs here, guys, but if that live-and-let-live attitude could replace the one of never-never-never, maybe there wouldn’t be so many discussions about dwindling Match attendance and the dismal future of the BPCR sports.
jackrabbit
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Re: Trends in Gong Matches

Post by jackrabbit »

Very interesting!! Thank you for sharing.
DeadEye
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Re: Trends in Gong Matches

Post by DeadEye »

Thank you DaveC, I couldn't have said it better and I'm not going to try.

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Don McDowell
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Re: Trends in Gong Matches

Post by Don McDowell »

Jim Bourne has been using strobes at Alliance the last couple of years. They have their faults, but they aren't as likely to go off falsely as the radio's can sometimes do. They as with radio's can be subject to dead spots on the target. I would imagine that in a full blown Quigley the batteries on the strobes would need to be changed fairly often during the match.

Scope vs Iron, not sure from using both, that the scope holds any advantage except for maybe in 22 BPCR. The scopes may hold an advantage in low light conditions.

Prone vs setting, depends on the firing line. Baker there wouldn't be many good firing points to shoot prone from, but with that said if a person gets into a good sitting position with the sticks at the proper height, the accuracy difference is minimal, but there are some folks that can't shoot from sitting and some folks that can't due to medical reasons get into a prone position.

Smokeless vs black.. I think at the gong matches it's probably a toss up if you look at the top 10 between the two powders. My guess is in the gong matches the top shooters are probably more consistently related to who shoots the long targets in the mornings when it's calm winds than what powder they use.

Interesting thoughts about how the BPCRS and BPTR matches should allow smokeless posted above. Except for the fact that local match directors have the ability to let smokeless shooters shoot the club matches and most do. The smokeless shooters scores can't be entered for record or reported for classification, but they can shoot.. It's also interesting that on occasion when a smokeless shooter does show up for a match chances are pretty good next time he/she will be back with black powder rounds and better bullets.. Last time I saw a survey from the Quigley it was surprising to see that about 2 /3 of the shooters shot black.
Cliff at the Lodi club has once a year what he calls an any comers match bptr where as long as it's a "legal" rifle the powder charge doesn't matter, and it's advertised as such.. Very few "newbies" shooting smokeless show up.

Gong matches can be fun, but the big fault I see with them, the person that bounces a bullet off a rock somewhere in the vicinity of the target and makes the strobe/radio go off, or uses every nook and cranny of the target, gets the same score as the shooter that is busy shooting the head off the bolt in the center of the target that holds it to the stand.
I think it would be beneficial for more "gong" shooters to attend an NRA match and see that most of the folks shooting there are the same ones they shot with last week at the gong match, and they can have just as much fun at the NRA matches as they did at the gong match.
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Kurt
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Re: Trends in Gong Matches

Post by Kurt »

semtav wrote:A recent thread got me to thinking about changes we are seeing in gong matches and wondering what others think about them

First is scopes. As the general shooting age is increasing, I'm seeing more scopes being used at matches. Do the sponsoring entities still think they need to be separated into different categories or is there a clear advantage ?

for me I see no advantage using a scope if I see the target. But there are times seeing a silhouette is tough when the berms are wet and dark I loose the target and I'm forced to go with the scope. Targets like the white spot on the gongs II don't see an advantage between a scope or irons, or shooting the paper at long range. (but at times I see two white spots LOL.)
For several years now I have been trying to switch to a scope and it gets pulled back off again during practice and the tang goes back on for the match.


Second is the use of lights to score hits instead of radios. Anyone have any pros or cons about their use?

I like the radios over the lights but both working together and the light closer to the target would be my choice.

Third is powder usage. is anyone seeing a trend in winners shooting one type over another ?

Smokeless is a sticker for me. Gong shoots like the Q and others using the period rifles use the period powder. Having smokeless shooters in the same squad with powder shooters rushes the line for those controlling fouling. What bothers me the most when there is a smokeless shooter in my squad is if there is a head wind the @#$% fillers they use makes my eyes water like I just came out of a teargas chamber with out a mask. Put them in their own squad. As far as putting them in their own class makes no difference to me. I don't see that they have an advantage other then not controlling fouling. But I shot near a smokeless shooter not more then 15 feet from me that had a rifle district and I seen the barrel and wood flying and headed the scream of pain this makes me say I would just as soon not have another shoot near me. Sorry.

Fourth is Prone verses sitting. The few matches I attend don't show that much of an advantage of one over the other altho prone should have a clear advantage..

I'm forced to shoot sitting because of the pain shooting prone. I can't even sit on the ground with out having to climb up on the hot barrel getting up. A shooter shooting prone does have a advantage over a shooter sitting.
We held a memorial shoot for Buz Coker in September and chose not to separate the scope and iron sight shooters into separate categories.
The outcome was interesting.

First place was a male shooter with 31 hits, shooting black powder and using a scope.
Second place shooter was a female with 31 hits shooting smokeless and using iron sights
That's about as even as you can get in every category !!

altho we used a red light on one target during practice, I wasn't comfortable leaving it on during the match and would like some input from others that have used lights during a match.
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hipshot1
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Re: Trends in Gong Matches

Post by hipshot1 »

I think scopes have a small advantage is low light conditions but I am not sure that they need to be in their own class, I think that is up to who ever is running the shoot.

I don't like the strobe lights. Shooting, its cool to see the light flash when you make a hit, but I think in time you will develop a bad habit of lifting you head to see if you hit. Spotting, the flash of the light takes you eye off the target so you don't see where the hit is. they are not any more reliable than the radios.
.
Powder, I don't think it makes any difference as long as it is safe. One will shoot just as good as the other.

Prone should be more accurate but in most cow pastures you wont always be able to find a spot on the line that will work.
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mike herth
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Re: Trends in Gong Matches

Post by mike herth »

Interesting discussion. I agree with Kurt’s thoughts on squadding the black powder shooters separately for the reasons he identified. The historical aspects of the old style rifles is what attracts me to this sport so I wish more shooters would gravitate to black powder,but to each his own. I sure appreciate the work the match directors and club members do to make this sport so enjoyable. The learning curve is never ending.
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MikeT
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Re: Trends in Gong Matches

Post by MikeT »

I think that at gong & silhouette matches a scope could be an advantage. At least it does for me.
But eventually we [the elders in the bunch] will be forced to change to shooting scopes.
I have seen the results of a LR shooter that tried smokeless powder at LR. At 1K he was keeping his shots on the berm. :twisted:

Keep on hav'n fun!
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Kenny Wasserburger
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Re: Trends in Gong Matches

Post by Kenny Wasserburger »

One trend that needs to be touched on and it's a huge one.

SAFTETY.

I have attended gong shoots and the Raton matches for 24 years, in those 24 years at NRA BP only events, not a single person has had most of their fingers blown off a hand.

The Quigley has. Plus more than one gun blown up, an a accidental discharge charge behind the line.

My personal favorite, because it happened to me, a young woman pointed a loaded gun at me and others on the firing line........the excuse...she didn't know any better.

Btw I have never went back.

KW
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J.B.
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Re: Trends in Gong Matches

Post by J.B. »

Can't say I'm a fan of the strobe light.. at least based on our experiences in 'Oz' :wink: or this year at the 'Q'. They can be just as susceptible to 'false readings' as the radios without the benefit of rewarding the shooter and scorer with the 'clang'. We've had lights flash before the hammer drops down here... now thats a fast bullet. Radios backed up with the shooters spotter plus a few others on the line would seem a hard recipe to beat. Not perfect possibly but fairly close. I'm hoping radios are back on the menu for 2019.
When we started our club we had two members who preferred to shoot prone. They are two of the better shooters in our club and also among the few who would be able to physically shoot prone anyway. Prone was ruled out but they usually finished in the top three regardless. In hindsight, for our small numbers at least, I think it was the wrong thing to do..and I think it will get addressed again down the line.
Black vs smokeless/nitro powders ? With most of us having gone through the 'try smokeless first' school and decided that black was 'the go' we opted for a black powder only rule for our matches. It appears we lost 2-3 members directly and possibly a few more indirectly. Once again we cut our nose off to spite our face. That rule has since been dropped...but alas those people dont come back. A 'black powder championship' is just that while the Q or another gong ..or even paper target match that isnt specified ..automatically allows for a greater cross section of shooters and larger numbers. Why some can load smokeless safely and others cannot I dont know but thats another well worn road.
Scope and iron sights..? Cant really contribute much other than at times I'd have liked a scope to see what I'm missing :oops: I've heard it said that they are beneficial in low light situations and can make it a little easier to 'shade' a target if required. If there were 8/10 in the top ten using scopes vs iron sights then the question would be asked...but then the top ten usually comprise the better shooters on the day also...so its not as clear as some might think. Not being a contender, I dont have strong feelings either way. That may change when I can see even less down the sights than I'm seeing now :P

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mdeland
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Re: Trends in Gong Matches

Post by mdeland »

I think scopes should always be in a separate class especially in the winter months in the northern latitudes. When the aperture rear and blade front begin to dim out the scope can still see the targets clearly a good bit longer.
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Lumpy Grits
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Re: Trends in Gong Matches

Post by Lumpy Grits »

When I shot the 'Q'. Several times the radios failed to 'hear' a hit, and we as spotters told the scorekeepers the hit was made.
One time-Everyone heard, and several saw one of my hits, and the radio was silent. :roll:
I agree about a separate class for scoped rifles.
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Re: Trends in Gong Matches

Post by 38-72 »

Second is the use of lights to score hits instead of radios. Anyone have any pros or cons about their use?

We used radios for years and every year they were problematic. This year we switched over to strobe lights (T1000 model by MagnetoSpeed) which mount on the back of the gong with the strobe light just off the edge of the gong. Very easy to see with spotting scope. Not one problem with the strobes all year long (7 month matches). Everyone agreed it was a great improvement.


Third is powder usage. is anyone seeing a trend in winners shooting one type over another ?

There were winners using both black (Swiss) and smokeless.

Fourth is Prone verses sitting. The few matches I attend don't show that much of an advantage of one over the other altho prone should have a clear advantage..

The shooters that shot sitting tended to get the highest scores.

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semtav
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Re: Trends in Gong Matches

Post by semtav »

Kenny Wasserburger wrote:One trend that needs to be touched on and it's a huge one.

SAFTETY.

I have attended gong shoots and the Raton matches for 24 years, in those 24 years at NRA BP only events, not a single person has had most of their fingers blown off a hand.

The Quigley has. Plus more than one gun blown up, an a accidental discharge charge behind the line.

My personal favorite, because it happened to me, a young woman pointed a loaded gun at me and others on the firing line........the excuse...she didn't know any better.

Btw I have never went back.

KW
Thank for your reply Kenny. I think that is the feeling of quite a few that shoot the NRA venues.

It does bring a couple questions to mind. Quite often the National finals are compared to the Quigley when talking about turnout and atmosphere. But is that really what every one wants? Wouldn't that bring more chance of some little mishap at the finals. Shouldn't the finals be about competing with the best of the best ?? Just a question not an opinion.


The second is about shooting around someone that is shooting smokeless. Brent made a comment on another thread that I don't understand, when talking about his rifle blow up. He said that a 30-06 is not the same as BPC rifles. Isn't it. Aren't all cast bullet loads basically the same ? You are either shooting black in them or you are shooting a load that if done wrong like being double charged can result a gun blowing up.

Third is about the different smokeless powders. When I think of smokeless powders I think of 4895, 4759, 5744, 4227 etc. But what about powders like Blackhorn 209, Black MZ etc. Do people consider them smokeless and just as dangerous in BPC rifles.
I ask because shortly after I started shooting BPC rifles I switched to black and never looked back. Then I switched to PP And quit the GG completely. That brought up a new problem when shooting local matches. Since wiping was the only good way of fouling control, it just wasn't feasible to wipe at every local match. So I started experimenting with Blackhorn and found I could load it just like black without the fouling control and percieved safety issues of smokeless. Now I just choose my powder based on the match.
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