44-77 Tight Chamber?

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77 sharps
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Re: 44-77 Tight Chamber?

Post by 77 sharps »

I suggest using the bullet version you have and do the sizing routine for a few shots. I have noticed that case neck thin slightly with use. One other thought. Shiloh has at least two and possibly three different chambering reamers for .44-2 1/4 SBN. Maybe you should check with Kirk and see which one they used for your rifle.
bobw
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Re: 44-77 Tight Chamber?

Post by bobw »

What is the inside diameter of your case necks after sizing the outside down?..bobw
bobw
Pilgrim
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Re: 44-77 Tight Chamber?

Post by Pilgrim »

Since the nose diameter of your bullet is stopping your loaded rounds from fully seating in the chamber the first thing I would do is get a bullet that fits your chamber. Turning case necks will never solve this bullet problem. A down and dirty short term solution could be carefully filing lead off the nose diameter of a few of your Lyman bullets until they fit your chamber using your dowel technique to slide the bullet into the chamber. You can then load them and determine if you need to neck turn your brass. Hopefully you will find that neck turning is not necessary.
Griff
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Re: 44-77 Tight Chamber?

Post by Griff »

I have a few options to try now. Thanks! I'm in the middle of several very busy days so I won't be able to get to this until late this week or next week but I'm grateful for the suggestions.

Griff
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Kurt
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Re: 44-77 Tight Chamber?

Post by Kurt »

The Shiloh chambers are very good tight chambers. Just a simple issue like trying to seat a bullet that is slightly oversized or even a wad that is too tight will swell the case wall or if your shooting a GG bullet and use the expander die to seat the bullet and then run it through the seating die if you use one the case neck might not be sized back down properly leaving a slight bulge in the neck and causing a tight fitting shell in the chamber. This can be solved using a neck sizing die with a proper adjustment so you don't overly tighten the neck holding the bullet. You don't want to have the necks at different tensions causing bullet release issues throwing a bunch of verticals.
Below is an example of pushing a over sized wad into a soft annealed case. I only shoot PP bullets and I design my reamers mostly cloned from the original chambers that run a lot tighter than what is used now days because of the lube grooved bullets used. I cant use a GG bullet in a lot of my custom rifles. They wont fit.
You can see the bump in the case neck of those three cases. These are extreme because I used a .06" polly wad that was cut for a standard chamber will push the case wall out when the powder is compressed. I only use a .03" cards for my tight chambers. The other loaded round is after I ran it into a neck die taking the bump out.

With out taking measurements it's just a guess what your problem is.
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Kurt
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Re: 44-77 Tight Chamber?

Post by Kurt »

Also, take your bullet and insert the ogive into the muzzle to see if the bore riding portion fits to the first driving band. If it don't your problem might be just that.
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MikeT
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Re: 44-77 Tight Chamber?

Post by MikeT »

Griff,
Many years ago I o/s neck turned hundreds of 40-50 SBN cases because I was shooting gg bullets. Now, I shoot PP bullets so no neck turning is required.
I used a Sinclair hand turning tool with a Lee case holder in a hand drill to spin the case while turning the case neck. It was fairly quick & easy compared to hand turning the case.

Keep on hav'n fun!
MikeT
Griff
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Re: 44-77 Tight Chamber?

Post by Griff »

The insanity that was my schedule during the past couple of weeks is starting to ease back, so hopefully I'll get a chance to work on this project. I've only been able to scan most of the responses) suggestions since I've had so much going on. It will take some time before I really work through these suggestions, but I really appreciate the input that I've been getting. Thanks!
bobw wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 4:16 am What is the inside diameter of your case necks after sizing the outside down?..bobw

After sizing, the brass as it stands (without turning the neck or expanding) has an inside diameter of about .439 and an outside diameter of about .463. These measurements were taken with calipers rather than a micrometer, so they are only approximate.
Kurt wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 9:06 am Also, take your bullet and insert the ogive into the muzzle to see if the bore riding portion fits to the first driving band. If it don't your problem might be just that.
Fitting into the muzzle end, these bullets easily fit until the first driving band (.446) engages the rifling. Filing that driving band down to the level of the bullet nose just in front of it allows the bullet to go that much deeper into the chamber, but the overall dimension of the .446 bullet seated in these cases is too large to chamber.

I'll be ordering the case turning tool to see if that helps, but it will be a delay while it is shipped.

Griff
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Griff
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Re: 44-77 Tight Chamber?

Post by Griff »

Kurt, if I seat these bullets into this brass (after sizing the necks) they definitely push out the brass, bulging it to fit the bullet (and no doubt also somewhat sizing the bullet a little smaller), but I'm not seeing additional bulges or wrinkles in the brass. This brass has been annealed to the shoulder to contribute to longer life, but the majority of my brass in untouched.

Griff
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bobw
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Re: 44-77 Tight Chamber?

Post by bobw »

Is that after you sized with a 44-77 fl die or after sizing with the 43 mauser die? Bobw
bobw
Griff
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Re: 44-77 Tight Chamber?

Post by Griff »

bobw wrote: Thu Sep 01, 2022 6:35 pm Is that after you sized with a 44-77 fl die or after sizing with the 43 mauser die? Bobw
That's with the Mauser die, with the expander removed. I don't have an actual .44-77 die set.

Griff
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Kurt
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Re: 44-77 Tight Chamber?

Post by Kurt »

Your problem is most likely in the die set. There is a way you can see what the relation with the brass and bullet by taking a fired case and see how the bullet fits the case then turn the necks to make a proper fit for the bullet.
Your bore riding portion sounds good if it fits the bore at the muzzle. Also I would not go with a GG bullet that is one thousand larger than the groove.
It's hard to analyze a problem without having the rifle and components in hand. It just makes it guess work.
I never size my brass, but I don't shoot GG bullets and if I did I would not size the brass either but I might adjust my taper crimp die so it would just put slight friction on the bullet to hold it.
You will get your problem worked out so hang in there.

Kurt
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bobw
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Re: 44-77 Tight Chamber?

Post by bobw »

Well Griff at this point it is damn simple .432" ppb's wrapped in 9lb onion skin paper will be at .438". Prime the case, fill with 1 fg half way up the neck, seat a hard card wad over the powder, seat that wrapped bullet on top that. Shoot it, guess I'd do atleast a half a dozen. Now measure the inside and outside of your fireformed brass and we will know what you have.
You could also pull the forearm off and see if shiloh stamped pp chamber under the fore end on the barrel. If you have bona-fide original style tight chamber it will never chamber a cartridge with a 446 diameter greaser period got it? Do not buy any mold until you know exactly what the chamber is. Ok? Now pm me your postal address and if needed I can send you some bullets, patches, and wads to fire form some cases. Bobw
bobw
bobw
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Re: 44-77 Tight Chamber?

Post by bobw »

Well Griff at this point it is damn simple .432" ppb's wrapped in 9lb onion skin paper will be at .438". Prime the case, fill with 1 fg half way up the neck, seat a hard card wad over the powder, seat that wrapped bullet on top that. Shoot it, guess I'd do atleast a half a dozen. Now measure the inside and outside of your fireformed brass and we will know what you have.
You could also pull the forearm off and see if shiloh stamped pp chamber under the fore end on the barrel. If you have bona-fide original style tight chamber it will never chamber a cartridge with a 446 diameter greaser period got it? Do not buy any mold until you know exactly what the chamber is. Ok? Now pm me your postal address and if needed I can send you some bullets, patches, and wads to fire form some cases. Bobw
bobw
Kurt
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Re: 44-77 Tight Chamber?

Post by Kurt »

bobw wrote: Thu Sep 01, 2022 7:41 pm Well Griff at this point it is damn simple .432" ppb's wrapped in 9lb onion skin paper will be at .438". Prime the case, fill with 1 fg half way up the neck, seat a hard card wad over the powder, seat that wrapped bullet on top that. Shoot it, guess I'd do atleast a half a dozen. Now measure the inside and outside of your fireformed brass and we will know what you have.
You could also pull the forearm off and see if shiloh stamped pp chamber under the fore end on the barrel. If you have bona-fide original style tight chamber it will never chamber a cartridge with a 446 diameter greaser period got it? Do not buy any mold until you know exactly what the chamber is. Ok? Now pm me your postal address and if needed I can send you some bullets, patches, and wads to fire form some cases. Bobw
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The reason a dog has so many friends is because he wags his tail instead of his tongue.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"Winston Churchill
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