Shiloh Rifle Forums

I have a .45-90 with the standard Shiloh 45 deg. chamber. The rifle has proven to be match quality at the long ranges I shoot. I use 2.6" cases trimmed to 2.405" the max functional length. Every shell that comes out has the annoying ring, albeit very thin. Bullet is a Dual dia. seated .300 deep. Where is the ring coming from? Is it essentially a circumference cut slice leaving a 2 piece patch to go out the bore? Fired cases are checked with a .459 gage pin, no pulling of brass into the throat. Seems the patch cut must be at the case mouth upon initial obtruation over the 45 degree. So basically do I end up with a separated 2 piece patched bullet I am shooting? Using Swiss and .06 veg, .06 poly. and .0015" paper.
KW

Seat them shallower and see if it is cured. Bobw

If you really got bored Kim :

https://shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=24644

Brian:
I have read those 7 pages, and will re read it all again. Most replies are about lead/chamfer angles unless I missed the nugget. My curiosity is about the paper getting sheared off and packed into the resultant 45 degree micro gap at case mouth.
So are we really firing a 2 piece stacked patch after the ring is cut free? Recovered bullets sometimes seem to indicate a line at case mouth.
kw

There was a thread somewhere on here that discussed it.
I thought there was a picture of the band around a bullet that showed just what you are asking.

I always figured if it is leaving an impression ( or is that expression) in the bullet it would be better to have it forward farther.

Or so far back it's not leaving one at all.

Might have been on the thread last year where I was analyzing some paper shreds and you could see where the paper was separated right at the case mouth.

The simple answer is this. The gap between the case mouth and the 45º transition into the throat. This is a high magnification using the bore scope. I try to keep my cases .006" short of the chamber length to allow case stretching when the round is fired so it does not pull up into the throat and cause more damage.
The result is this after every shot fired. They are there if you look for them.
If you expend this photo and look at the top string like ring you will see that there are several fine build up layers from a case tight to the chamber end transition. They build up even with a tight fit case.
Here is what can happen when paper rings build up. What you see here is a deep seated bullet and the use of a blow tube to control the fouling. Using a blow tube chances are for the rings to build up more were the use of patch wiping process will clean the ring out between shots fired usually. I purposely deep seated this bullet to set what that 45º does to the shank side wall as it starts to move. It makes no difference if the paper is .0015" thick or over two thousands thick what you see is what it looks like. The groove on the ogive is the mark of a paper ring carried out with the bullet.

Here is the difference between a 5º transition what I use for most of the chambers I have a reamer made for. When a bullet clears the muzzle looking like these four and they don't show accuracy your looking for it's not the 4º, 5º or the 7º transition the chamber has it's you or your load that is doing something wrong. Bullets that have these transitions I have not found lead or paper rings even or lead rings with these lubed

Kurt
I do not understand the knurled bullets concept. I am using very wet 2 felt bore pigs and Mpro-7 on every shot. So I have no accumulated paper build up. I still would like to know if we are shooting a stacked 2 piece paper jacket after the ring is torn out. My cases are at max safe length verified by gage pin and bore camera. Breaking the lead angle to something less than 45 deg does have its appeal.
kw

kwilliams wrote: ↑Tue Sep 06, 2022 11:36 am I have a .45-90 with the standard Shiloh 45 deg. chamber. The rifle has proven to be match quality at the long ranges I shoot. I use 2.6" cases trimmed to 2.405" the max functional length. Every shell that comes out has the annoying ring, albeit very thin. Bullet is a Dual dia. seated .300 deep. Where is the ring coming from? Is it essentially a circumference cut slice leaving a 2 piece patch to go out the bore? Fired cases are checked with a .459 gage pin, no pulling of brass into the throat. Seems the patch cut must be at the case mouth upon initial obtruation over the 45 degree. So basically do I end up with a separated 2 piece patched bullet I am shooting? Using Swiss and .06 veg, .06 poly. and .0015" paper.
KW

Have you tried just straight sided bullets ? I happen to like my rifles with the 45 degree transition but I am not using a DDPPB

It’s also worth me mentioning that the only time I get or have gotten paper rings is when I have let my brass get to long. A really good example of that was at friendship in august. My 38 brass was long and going into the transition. My scores reflected that problem. I trimmed my brass .006 short of the chamber and went to another shoot the next weekend. I didn’t have paper rings and my scores were back where I wanted them to be. I know everyone has their own methods and what works best for them but this is just what has worked for me. I do get poly rings sometimes but not paper rings. Not unless the brass is to long.

I shoot straight sided PP bullets and seat my bullets 0.100 to 0.125 max depth in the case.
If that does not do it, I use a harder alloy.

Keep on hav'n fun!
MikeT

kwilliams wrote: ↑Tue Sep 06, 2022 6:57 pm Kurt
I do not understand the knurled bullets concept. I am using very wet 2 felt bore pigs and Mpro-7 on every shot. So I have no accumulated paper build up. I still would like to know if we are shooting a stacked 2 piece paper jacket after the ring is torn out. My cases are at max safe length verified by gage pin and bore camera. Breaking the lead angle to something less than 45 deg does have its appeal.
kw

The Knurled bullet in this photo is a 434" as cast. And when I use my knurling roller it increases the diameter to .446" or slightly more if I want it so I can use it as a lubed bullet groove diameter or I can use it for a PP bullet for the .45 or increase it to a groove diameter .44 PP. It holds more lube than a 4 grooved bullet and the whole surface is covered with lube helping to keep the lead smear that is common for a GG bullet down plus I think it reduces the drag, but I cant say for sure. It holds well in the grooves without a stripping problem. This photo is not a good quality to see the land cuts clear but they are full bore/groove.
As far as the two stack paper jacket, That I cant say for sure. I have shot over concrete in a protected spot where there is no wind to blow the patch remnants away checking this. Mostly what I find is the under wrap full length that gets blown off as it clears the muzzle and patches full with to the under fold or the full length of the inner wrap if I use .002: thick paper. I have seen with the .0018" thick paper I use that shows the outer patch is separated at the case mouth with some of the shorter vertical cut strips but it would be speculation that happen from the transition or just blown off.
Using thinner paper than the depth of the groove this might be a problem. I don't know.
I have to remember to proof read this Mac. It has a tendency to write what it wants and not what I want

This might answer your question if your using a two stacked bullet.
I couldn't find the the patch remnants I want but here is a thick paper part inner and outer wrap. On the left you can see on the bottom the under wrap and on the right it appears that it got cut at the rim mouth. So I would suspect that thinner paper might get cut clear through both wraps but I would think the wad would still hold and push the bottom in place till it cleared the muzzle.

Thanks Kurt
That is some interesting info. I almost never am able to recover my patch shreds because of the weeds and wind. Every good slug I can recover I do study for what it may offer. May try some 12:1 alloy next just to see if the rings go away. Thinking I do not need much obturation with the dual dia. bullets.
kw