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Was the 44-60 a sharps cartridge?

Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2022 9:57 am
by firefighter1990
Can't seem to get a definitive answer on this one so I'm asking all you experts. Was the 44-60 BN ever a sharps cartridge? I've seen an original so labeled in auction but never got visual proof of its chamber length. Barrel was marked calibre 44 and auction house was very unsure whether it was 1-11/16, 2-1/4, or 2-5/8.

Have seen mention of it in MLV's writing too but again never definitive as to whether it was a sharps and remington chambering or just remington

Re: Was the 44-60 a sharps cartridge?

Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2022 3:16 pm
by Gamerancher
I found a listing in the 14th edition of Cartridges of the World for the ".44-60 Sharps & Remington (necked)"
Barnes states, "This 1-7/8" .44 case was loaded by Remington and Winchester. It was introduced in 1869 for the 1869 porting Rifle and used in Sharps, Winchester and Remington single-shot rifles."

Re: Was the 44-60 a sharps cartridge?

Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2022 3:31 pm
by firefighter1990
That's where I first learned of the cartridge was that book. I do remember reading that now.

I've read two old posts on this forum about the 44 1-7/8" and I assume they had the various Sharps books as reference, but they said theres no record of sharps making rifles in such. But then cartridges of the world says otherwise. I've googled it some but nothing more comes up other than cartridge collection sales and Pacific tool and gauge reamers. So I don't know where the truth lies. I pm'd MLV a fews years back and never heard back.

Re: Was the 44-60 a sharps cartridge?

Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2022 6:27 pm
by bobw
There are more than a few cartridges with the Sharps moniker behind them that Sharps had nothing to do with like all the 3 1/4" cases. I know more than a few Sharps Collector Association members and not one of them have ever seen a 69 or 74 model chambered for 44-60. 44's were mostly Hartford era guns and caliber 44 on the top flat in frt of the receiver was common. Even factory letters sometimes just mention caliber 44 without delineating to whether it is a 44-2 1/4" sbn or a 44-2 5/8" sbn (77or 90). Bobw

Re: Was the 44-60 a sharps cartridge?

Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2022 7:09 pm
by firefighter1990
Interesting. Thank you! So it was a marketing technique to call it "sharps"? Falls into the same class as the 3-1/4" cartridges.

I have seen and heard of rolling blocks in the short 44-60 bn. But even then its one of those cartridges that was long lost in the shadows of the more powerful and popular offerings. The 44-77 mainly I assume.

Re: Was the 44-60 a sharps cartridge?

Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2022 8:05 am
by Nuclearcricket
I have also seen this cartridge listed and a Peabody Creedmore. Some of the information I have run across on internet searches is in a language I can't understand. It is an interesting looking round and easy enough to make from 45-70 cases. With the case and over all length, I am a little surprised it wasn't chambered in the Win 76.
I have talked to one person that actually has a Roller in this caliber and he said it shot well. Its a Lonestar rifle and he told me that Dave talked him into it and was told if he didn't like it it would be re-barreled for free to a caliber of his choice.
All things considered it should make a good mid range, silhouette round. There is getting to be a good selection of GG bullet molds as well as PP molds available. One word of caution on chamber reamers. Check the neck diameter on the reamer print. Some are tight enough that you would have to ream your case necks if you want to chamber GG bullets.
Sam

Re: Was the 44-60 a sharps cartridge?

Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2022 8:20 am
by Nuclearcricket
For a visual reference, pictured from left to right, a BACO 44-60 bn case made from .348 brass, a 45-70 case necked down and fire formed in a 44-77 chamber and then a 44-77 fire formed case.
100_1252.JPG

Re: Was the 44-60 a sharps cartridge?

Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2022 10:59 am
by Dutch44
A friend has an original heavy barrel Roller in that caliber with a pristine bore I'm going to buy. Cases at BACO. Thinking 405 to 450 gr. PP are the order of the day.

Re: Was the 44-60 a sharps cartridge?

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2022 1:38 pm
by Nuclearcricket
A little more info on the 44-60 cases. I have one from BACO that was formed from WW 348 brass. it weighs 220.7g. A sarline 45-70 that I necked down and shortened weights 183.0g. A Rem case I fired in a 44-77 chamber and then shortened and necked down weighs 179.6.
To check case capacity I stuck a funnel on top of the cases and just pored powder from the can into the case and struck it off at the top of the neck. I used GOEX Ctg powder. The BACO case held 69.1g. The Starline held 67.1 and the Rem case held 70.4g. When you only fill the case to the base of the neck or so it will be a lot less, but this will give you a small idea of case capacity, probably looking at something in the 55 g or so.
Dutch, I sent you a pm as well
Sam

Re: Was the 44-60 a sharps cartridge?

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2022 3:05 pm
by TGC
Dutch. I would be interested in knowing the chamber and barrel dimensions as well as the rate of twist. Thanks. Tim.

Re: Was the 44-60 a sharps cartridge?

Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2022 9:13 am
by marlinman93
Nuclearcricket wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 1:38 pm A little more info on the 44-60 cases. I have one from BACO that was formed from WW 348 brass. it weighs 220.7g. A sarline 45-70 that I necked down and shortened weights 183.0g. A Rem case I fired in a 44-77 chamber and then shortened and necked down weighs 179.6.
To check case capacity I stuck a funnel on top of the cases and just pored powder from the can into the case and struck it off at the top of the neck. I used GOEX Ctg powder. The BACO case held 69.1g. The Starline held 67.1 and the Rem case held 70.4g. When you only fill the case to the base of the neck or so it will be a lot less, but this will give you a small idea of case capacity, probably looking at something in the 55 g or so.
Dutch, I sent you a pm as well
Sam
Wouldn't a drop tube give a more accurate fill measurement? Seems like just filling from the can with a funnel wouldn't be very accurate?

Re: Was the 44-60 a sharps cartridge?

Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2022 9:34 am
by Nuclearcricket
Martin, I am sure it would. I just wanted to produce and idea of case capacity, or volume. However, filing each case the same way give a bit of a consistent comparison. I do know with one case there was a little bit of powder that wanted to stay in the case, not sure why but a little bit just didn't' want to come out. If I had fired cases to work with I am sure the numbers would also be different.
None the less, it appears you are looking at a cartridge in the working range of a 40-65, or 40-60 with a bit bigger bullet. While there may not be quite the selection of bullets available as there are for the 40's, there is atill a good choice of weights and styles. In PP you can get down to close to 300gr, and all the way up to close to 500gr if you want. And pretty much the same weight range for gg bullets.
I think with the right bullet to match the barrel twist, this round will be able to get the job done out to 600 yds or farther, and not kill on the back end.
Some day I hope to have at least one rifle chambered for this round. It will be nice to see that others are using it as well and to hear from them of their success or failure.
If nothing else, it does fit into the nitch of something different to play with.
Sam

Re: Was the 44-60 a sharps cartridge?

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2023 10:04 am
by Nuclearcricket
Just wondering if you have any updates on this caliber and/or if you purchased it. I know in most parts of the country this isn't quite the best time for good weather for shooting but inquiring minds tend to wonder in the winter months.
Sam