Dan,
Would there be any futher reduction in drag if you used that profile and a mono-groove?
Lloyd
45-cal LR Bullet Design and Performance
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Edward Malinowski
- Posts: 559
- Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2004 5:54 pm
- Location: Northeast Territory New Jersey 15W
Thank you Dan.
I guess Winchester brass was used.
I know this will not get a precise answer but how much of the bullet was in the case?
Just to get an idea of powder compression.
If I order, just ask for a Dan' mini groove? Waiting time?
Any premium for this mold or did you absorb the specialty mould cost when you ordered yours.
I was always sorry I didn't get something larger than a 45/70. Now finances
preclude another rifle and I would like a long distance capability with my 45/70.
Do you use or recommend a cartridge seater?
Lube....Whitelightning for grooved bullets or your special groove-less lube?
Why the .458 bands and not .460 to prevent leading?
I have a P....word rifle and the .460 of the PGT works well as cast with .460?
Ed Malinowski
I guess Winchester brass was used.
I know this will not get a precise answer but how much of the bullet was in the case?
Just to get an idea of powder compression.
If I order, just ask for a Dan' mini groove? Waiting time?
Any premium for this mold or did you absorb the specialty mould cost when you ordered yours.
I was always sorry I didn't get something larger than a 45/70. Now finances
preclude another rifle and I would like a long distance capability with my 45/70.
Do you use or recommend a cartridge seater?
Lube....Whitelightning for grooved bullets or your special groove-less lube?
Why the .458 bands and not .460 to prevent leading?
I have a P....word rifle and the .460 of the PGT works well as cast with .460?
Ed Malinowski
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Timberlake
- Posts: 2063
- Joined: Tue Dec 24, 2002 12:56 pm
- Location: Born and Raised in Iowa
Dan,
Thanks for all that info but ain't that bullet a scaled up version of the tried and true version of the Lyman Snover 40 cal? Sure looks it and good because it is a good design!
TL
Thanks for all that info but ain't that bullet a scaled up version of the tried and true version of the Lyman Snover 40 cal? Sure looks it and good because it is a good design!
TL
"I heartily accept the motto, 'That government is best which governs least'; and I should like to see it acted up to more rapidly and systematically... 'That government is best which governs not at all'."
Thoreau
Thoreau
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Kelley O. Roos
- Posts: 3430
- Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2004 10:22 pm
- Location: Ca.
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Timberlake
- Posts: 2063
- Joined: Tue Dec 24, 2002 12:56 pm
- Location: Born and Raised in Iowa
Kelley,
I bought one of those Lyman Snover moulds many years ago. This was before buying a Lyman mould was considered the crap shoot it is today. The bullets that fall from this mould are fairly round and shoot quite well.
Dan,
Thanks for the further info. Without having one I'm still convinced your design is superior to the look -a- like Lyman Snover. I'd like to take that nose design and incorporate it into a paper patch design with the bearing diameter at .437. Weight would still be in the 540 gr area.
TL
I bought one of those Lyman Snover moulds many years ago. This was before buying a Lyman mould was considered the crap shoot it is today. The bullets that fall from this mould are fairly round and shoot quite well.
Dan,
Thanks for the further info. Without having one I'm still convinced your design is superior to the look -a- like Lyman Snover. I'd like to take that nose design and incorporate it into a paper patch design with the bearing diameter at .437. Weight would still be in the 540 gr area.
TL
"I heartily accept the motto, 'That government is best which governs least'; and I should like to see it acted up to more rapidly and systematically... 'That government is best which governs not at all'."
Thoreau
Thoreau
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david.bergen
- Posts: 73
- Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 5:17 pm
- Location: Diest, Belgium
Hi Dan,
How would a paper patched bullet off the same configuration compare to the minigroove? Same nose profile but no grease grooves. Would it increase bc even more. I also read somewhere, i can't remember were, that a bullet without grease grooves has a better stability...so for a rifle with a given barrel twist you could shoot a longer better BC bullet as a result. Do you have experience with this?
I am just looking for that magical long range bullet to shoot out off my approx. 1-20 twist Shiloh
Thanks David
How would a paper patched bullet off the same configuration compare to the minigroove? Same nose profile but no grease grooves. Would it increase bc even more. I also read somewhere, i can't remember were, that a bullet without grease grooves has a better stability...so for a rifle with a given barrel twist you could shoot a longer better BC bullet as a result. Do you have experience with this?
I am just looking for that magical long range bullet to shoot out off my approx. 1-20 twist Shiloh
Thanks David
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buffalocannon
- Posts: 1584
- Joined: Sat Feb 15, 2003 2:03 pm
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david.bergen
- Posts: 73
- Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 5:17 pm
- Location: Diest, Belgium
Hi Dan,
You told me just what I was hoping for.
I am thinking I am going to give Paul a phone call. Any sugestions I should consider. Tapered or straight. I have a very tight bore. .450-.456
What dia. and what paper to use as a starting point. I have read about alloys. Having them not to soft for eliminating bumping the nose and losing the aerodynamic shape. But changing alloy will also change the bullet dia. or is this change minimal?
I would like to have a flat bullet base. I know that makes patching the bullets more difficult but I think it is worth the extra trouble.
So go ahead if you have sugestions and good advice.
Thank you for posting these interesting posts.
You told me just what I was hoping for.
I am thinking I am going to give Paul a phone call. Any sugestions I should consider. Tapered or straight. I have a very tight bore. .450-.456
What dia. and what paper to use as a starting point. I have read about alloys. Having them not to soft for eliminating bumping the nose and losing the aerodynamic shape. But changing alloy will also change the bullet dia. or is this change minimal?
I would like to have a flat bullet base. I know that makes patching the bullets more difficult but I think it is worth the extra trouble.
So go ahead if you have sugestions and good advice.
Thank you for posting these interesting posts.
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Bruised
- Posts: 180
- Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 11:50 am
- Location: NE Oklahoma
hpguy,
Is there enough lube in this bullet for a 34" 45-110? I've been trying to decide on a long range/silhouette bullet as my 457125 starts fouling in the last 4" above 85-90 degrees. With the tapered band will it hurt to seat it deeper into the case to take up some powder space for silhouette loads?
Thanks,
Briused
Is there enough lube in this bullet for a 34" 45-110? I've been trying to decide on a long range/silhouette bullet as my 457125 starts fouling in the last 4" above 85-90 degrees. With the tapered band will it hurt to seat it deeper into the case to take up some powder space for silhouette loads?
Thanks,
Briused
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Edward Malinowski
- Posts: 559
- Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2004 5:54 pm
- Location: Northeast Territory New Jersey 15W
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Kenny Wasserburger
- Posts: 4740
- Joined: Tue Sep 24, 2002 3:53 pm
- Location: Gillette, Wyoming
Dan is correct in that Jimbo uses the Mini Groove and I the Mono Groove, and both Shiloh's carry the feared? or is it? butt kicking 34 inch barrels. My Mould is made by Steve Brooks and is a NOSE POUR of all things! Bases are PERFECT every time once the mould is up to temp. Both Bullets were Designs of Dan’s I took it a step further and had it shortend a bit to make me feel better with the 1-18 twist Shiloh barrel. Was it the right thing to do? I don’t know, all I know is how it shoots and that’s dam well.
Both bullets do an excellent job of getting the lube to the bore. Both bullets will have lube stars at the end of our 34 inch barrels that many would envy! The Lube we use for our fouling control is none other then Dan's White lighting lube. Fouling control is mainly controlled by the quality of ones lube, we (Jimbo and I have tried everything for lube) found that White Lighting lube works better then another, in any temp and at higher temps it out performs any other lube made BAR NONE. We use a blow tube in cooler and humid conditions, under 90's and over 18% humidity. The Key to blow tubing is slow deep breaths with lots of moisture not fast huffs on the tube. A chamber Swab comes into play to keep the chamber dry and prevent case stretching which can happen in the 45-110. Remember the 2-7/8ths Sharps is the HOT ROD of the BPCR era.
The other key to controlling the fouling is QUALITY POWDER and the proper grain size. For the 45-110 Fg works best Period, I don’t care if its Swiss or Goex but it has to be Fg to work the best and give the least amount of fouling in the 45-110. Fg burns clean in the 45-110 better then any other grain size.
However, when the temps get over 90's and the Humidity below 15% one must change methods of fouling control. Hence the Wyoming Bore Dawgs come into play this modern; version of the Fisher brush of early Creedmoor days comes into use.
We use 1 part water soluble oil and 10 parts water mix to soak our bore Dawgs in. And a Delrin rod to push this down the barrel after each shot with a 2 inch dry patch behind the dawg.
My Pard Jimbo makes a kit of the bore dawgs. This year at Raton we had no need for them and just ran with the blow tube and trust in our LUBE!
WE are finding (Jimbo and I) that the Mini Groove seems, at lest this is what we perceive that it shoots just inside my Mono Groove at the Creedmoor ranges on the order of 1-2 MOA less Correction needed in some of the conditions we have shot in. However one's spotter has to be on par with the conditions and Jimbo is one of the best in the nation as far as I feel, my 255/300 Day 2 of nationals proves it. Of course he will point at his 260/300 score, Day 1 of the nationals and will claim he had the best spotter in the country?
While lots of folks argue powder Goex/Swiss I don’t buy into that fight anymore. GOEX Express is as good as anything Swiss has to offer, and I feel (ask Jim Terry he agrees) Goex gives a softer fouling then swiss. Both powders are of excellent Quality. Ok I saw the Results of Raton Silhouette yeah can not argue with those results! But Express Goex was used to Win Two National Titles this year, Creedmoor Scope and Woman’s Mid-Range and Express won the National Woman’s Creedmoor Last year.
Some one has to do this and It may as well be me?????
Dan T has spent god knows and Dan, TIME-MONEY and Resources to Come up with a lube better then any other I have ever used.
Dan has also spent much time and lots of money on moulds and Testing of Bullets at long range and has come up with the best Designs that work, Dan put the time and the money and the range time to combine the best of all we long range shooters past and present have learned into the best bullet designs today. SO MY Hat is off TO Dan Theodore.
Kenny Wasserburger
Both bullets do an excellent job of getting the lube to the bore. Both bullets will have lube stars at the end of our 34 inch barrels that many would envy! The Lube we use for our fouling control is none other then Dan's White lighting lube. Fouling control is mainly controlled by the quality of ones lube, we (Jimbo and I have tried everything for lube) found that White Lighting lube works better then another, in any temp and at higher temps it out performs any other lube made BAR NONE. We use a blow tube in cooler and humid conditions, under 90's and over 18% humidity. The Key to blow tubing is slow deep breaths with lots of moisture not fast huffs on the tube. A chamber Swab comes into play to keep the chamber dry and prevent case stretching which can happen in the 45-110. Remember the 2-7/8ths Sharps is the HOT ROD of the BPCR era.
The other key to controlling the fouling is QUALITY POWDER and the proper grain size. For the 45-110 Fg works best Period, I don’t care if its Swiss or Goex but it has to be Fg to work the best and give the least amount of fouling in the 45-110. Fg burns clean in the 45-110 better then any other grain size.
However, when the temps get over 90's and the Humidity below 15% one must change methods of fouling control. Hence the Wyoming Bore Dawgs come into play this modern; version of the Fisher brush of early Creedmoor days comes into use.
We use 1 part water soluble oil and 10 parts water mix to soak our bore Dawgs in. And a Delrin rod to push this down the barrel after each shot with a 2 inch dry patch behind the dawg.
My Pard Jimbo makes a kit of the bore dawgs. This year at Raton we had no need for them and just ran with the blow tube and trust in our LUBE!
WE are finding (Jimbo and I) that the Mini Groove seems, at lest this is what we perceive that it shoots just inside my Mono Groove at the Creedmoor ranges on the order of 1-2 MOA less Correction needed in some of the conditions we have shot in. However one's spotter has to be on par with the conditions and Jimbo is one of the best in the nation as far as I feel, my 255/300 Day 2 of nationals proves it. Of course he will point at his 260/300 score, Day 1 of the nationals and will claim he had the best spotter in the country?
While lots of folks argue powder Goex/Swiss I don’t buy into that fight anymore. GOEX Express is as good as anything Swiss has to offer, and I feel (ask Jim Terry he agrees) Goex gives a softer fouling then swiss. Both powders are of excellent Quality. Ok I saw the Results of Raton Silhouette yeah can not argue with those results! But Express Goex was used to Win Two National Titles this year, Creedmoor Scope and Woman’s Mid-Range and Express won the National Woman’s Creedmoor Last year.
Some one has to do this and It may as well be me?????
Dan T has spent god knows and Dan, TIME-MONEY and Resources to Come up with a lube better then any other I have ever used.
Dan has also spent much time and lots of money on moulds and Testing of Bullets at long range and has come up with the best Designs that work, Dan put the time and the money and the range time to combine the best of all we long range shooters past and present have learned into the best bullet designs today. SO MY Hat is off TO Dan Theodore.
Kenny Wasserburger
We'll raise up our Glasses against Evil Forces, Singing, Whiskey for my men, Beer for my horses.
Wyoming Territory Sharps Shooter
Wyoming Territory Sharps Shooter
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Kelley O. Roos
- Posts: 3430
- Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2004 10:22 pm
- Location: Ca.
Timbedoodle,
I only wish that Lyman mould was better, as it is if my memory serves it shot well in my wifes 40-65.
I have now have two P.Jones mould that are mini groove, the first is tapered with Pauls nose, it is the one I shot for the first time at the Southeastern mid range championship. Dan T. will attest to this fact, at 600 yards after that first sighting shot I put the next 9 shot in the ten and X ring, except for some reason the last 4 shoots started stringing up which cost me major points.
I have not tested the newer Dan T nose design, took some major arm twisting to get Paul J. to make that nose profile. How I talked Paul into making the newer design was so we can get a side by side comparsion, you sometimes have to make Paul believe it is his idea for a design, Dan T. knows what I am talking about Do I think the newer nose will shoot better, I let you all know in a couple of weeks, testing will have to be at a match as I don't have time to get to the range for a papert test.
Since the mini groove uses less lube wipping is a neccesity.
Maybe I should order a 40 cal mould with the newer nose profile for my wifes rifle, hummmmm, thanks Timberdoodle.
Kelley O.
I only wish that Lyman mould was better, as it is if my memory serves it shot well in my wifes 40-65.
I have now have two P.Jones mould that are mini groove, the first is tapered with Pauls nose, it is the one I shot for the first time at the Southeastern mid range championship. Dan T. will attest to this fact, at 600 yards after that first sighting shot I put the next 9 shot in the ten and X ring, except for some reason the last 4 shoots started stringing up which cost me major points.
I have not tested the newer Dan T nose design, took some major arm twisting to get Paul J. to make that nose profile. How I talked Paul into making the newer design was so we can get a side by side comparsion, you sometimes have to make Paul believe it is his idea for a design, Dan T. knows what I am talking about
Do I think the newer nose will shoot better, I let you all know in a couple of weeks, testing will have to be at a match as I don't have time to get to the range for a papert test.Since the mini groove uses less lube wipping is a neccesity.
Maybe I should order a 40 cal mould with the newer nose profile for my wifes rifle, hummmmm, thanks Timberdoodle.
Kelley O.
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david.bergen
- Posts: 73
- Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 5:17 pm
- Location: Diest, Belgium
Dan,hpguy420 wrote:David,
Here's a suggested PP bullet for your 20-twist barrel that Paul Jones can make using the MiniGroove nose cutters. Experiment with alloys to find the one that shoots the best in your rifle.
Thank you for the drawing.
The .450 dimension is that as cast or as patched?
Wouldn't the bullet be oversized when patched and cast as .450 dia.
I have read about the size be detrimental for good accuracy.
I also ordered Orville his book on paper patching. That paper patching is a total new something for me.
Thanks
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david.bergen
- Posts: 73
- Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 5:17 pm
- Location: Diest, Belgium
No It's the normal Shiloh chamber. I am just a little worried about the dia.on the drawing.
When the bullet is .450 cast and you add two layers paper than it is bigger than my bore dimension (.450). I have read in various posts that the dia should be in the .448 range when patched with two layers paper. That would need a bullet in the .440-.443 range as cast.
Am I missing something here?
When the bullet is .450 cast and you add two layers paper than it is bigger than my bore dimension (.450). I have read in various posts that the dia should be in the .448 range when patched with two layers paper. That would need a bullet in the .440-.443 range as cast.
Am I missing something here?