To lube-wad or not to lube-wad, that is the question

[HarryH]

I am in the process of getting all "my-ducks-in-a-row" to start reloading for my 45-70 Shiloh Sharps.

I have read/scanned the different books by Mike Venturing/SPG and Paul Matthews, scanned through different on-line videos/articles etc. while trying to filter the real-info from the not-so-real info.

It this reading process I have come to the conclusion that there seem to be (at least) three forms of using wads:
1. One single wad (vegy, plastic), .030" or .060"
2. One single wad (vegy, plastic) followed by a 1/8" lube cookie.
3. One single wad (vegy, plastic) followed by a 1/8" lube cookie followed by another vegy or plastic wad.

In the third case the total wad thickness is at least 0.185"; so almost .2 inches.

So this will of course reduce the total amount of powder volume.

Yes, I will be using a 24" drop tube when adding powder to the case and I also anticipate using my Shiloh compression die per their instructions.
Yes, after every "few" shots I will use a blow-tube to moisturize the barrel followed by running through a few cleaning patches.

So here are my questions:
1. By adding the lube-cookie am I trading "clean-ability" for bullet velocity?
2. Since it has been suggested to start with 68 grains (I am using Swiss 1.5F), will I still be able to get that much powder into the case with "proper" compression if I use wad method number 2 or 3.

Thanks for helping me out on this.

Cheers,
Harry

[Woody]

Good morning Harry,

We can't answer your questions fully without more information. I'm assuming you are using a grease groove projectile and are shooting your rifle at a range or in a match. In this case, the use of a grease cookie is of no advantage. A single wad to protect the bullet's base is all that is needed. The main reason for the cookie is to keep a soft fouling condition for a limited number of follow up shots. Match grade accuracy will seldom follow this method of loading.

You stated, "after every "few" shots I will use a blow-tube to moisturize the barrel followed by running through a few cleaning patches."

This method of fouling control is also not conducive to accuracy. Fouling control is something that is done with each and every round sent downrange. If you chose to blow-tube, then blow for each round. If you chose to wipe, then wipe for each round. Bore condition consistency is the goal here and can not be accomplished "every few rounds".

Finally don't assume any powder charge listed in any manual, internet post, or publication is gospel. The 68 grains you found is only valid for that set of components in that particular rifle. You will have to do the basic load building and development with your components and rifle, to come up with your own data.

If you are heading down the Paper Patch fork in the road, then you will have a different set of challenges to address. Que BFD for this portion of response.

Woody

[Lumpy Grits]

What bullet
Fouling control must be done in target shooting after each shot.
Use that powder load as a starting point-Not an 'end-all' to load development.
Gary

[HarryH]

What bullet
Fouling control must be done in target shooting after each shot.
Use that powder load as a starting point-Not an 'end-all' to load development.
Gary

Gary, thanks for responding.

So far I bought 100 Buffalo Arms 100 cast bullets 425 grain, .458", p/n 457643.458.

I suspect I may have to get "other" (heavier?) bullets at some point.

I won't be casting my own ..... yet.......

OK, I will do fouling control after each shot and per Woody's recommendations, do it the same way after each round.

Once I have fired my first batch I will post my loading data and results to hopefully learn from you guys the next suggested loading iteration.

As always Gary, thanks for your consistently replying to my questions.

Now off to Woody's response.

Cheers,
Harry

[Lumpy Grits]

Are these bullets PP?
G.

[HarryH]

Good morning Harry,

We can't answer your questions fully without more information. I'm assuming you are using a grease groove projectile and are shooting your rifle at a range or in a match. In this case, the use of a grease cookie is of no advantage. A single wad to protect the bullet's base is all that is needed. The main reason for the cookie is to keep a soft fouling condition for a limited number of follow up shots. Match grade accuracy will seldom follow this method of loading.

You stated, "after every "few" shots I will use a blow-tube to moisturize the barrel followed by running through a few cleaning patches."

This method of fouling control is also not conducive to accuracy. Fouling control is something that is done with each and every round sent downrange. If you chose to blow-tube, then blow for each round. If you chose to wipe, then wipe for each round. Bore condition consistency is the goal here and can not be accomplished "every few rounds".

Finally don't assume any powder charge listed in any manual, internet post, or publication is gospel. The 68 grains you found is only valid for that set of components in that particular rifle. You will have to do the basic load building and development with your components and rifle, to come up with your own data.

If you are heading down the Paper Patch fork in the road, then you will have a different set of challenges to address. Que BFD for this portion of response.

Woody

Thanks Woody for your response.

So far I bought 100 Buffalo Arms cast bullets 425 grain, .458", p/n 457643.458. So indeed a "grooved" projectile with SPG grease in the grooves.

I suspect I will at some point need to consider other (heavier?) bullets.

I will be shooting at an outside rifle range with 50, 75, 100 and 200 yards lanes.

Once I have a decent 200 yard load, I will go to a different local that has 500 and 1000 yard ranges.

Indeed, my goal is match accuracy. So it sounds like just one patch to protect the bullet base and don't bother with a grease cooky.

OK, consistent fouling control after each fired round.

Yes, I had expected to "build a load" not unlike my smokeless loads I have developed over the years.

No, I have not yet considered paper patched buLlets. That is maybe for a future year.

Thanks again Woody for your response. I will look forward to yours, Gary's and others responses to help me learn the "art" of BPC shooting.

Cheers,
Harry.

[HarryH]

Are these bullets PP?
G.

No, not paper patched.
BTW, I listed the wrong p/n.
Here is the correct one.

https://www.buffaloarms.com/458-425-gra ... 457643-458

Cheers,
Harry

[Lumpy Grits]

No need for a lube-wad with GG bullets.
Get some Postel of Creedmoor bullets around 500-540gns. Give these guys a call. https://www.montanabulletworks.com/
SPG is great for cold weather shoot'n. When it gets warm/hot it 'bleeds' and becomes wet. I use DGL which deals better in the heat where I live.
.060 fiber wad is a good start.
G.

[HarryH]

No need for a lube-wad with GG bullets.
Get some Postel of Creedmoor bullets around 500-540gns. Give these guys a call. https://www.montanabulletworks.com/
SPG is great for cold weather shoot'n. When it gets warm/hot it 'bleeds' and becomes wet. I use DGL which deals better in the heat where I live.
.060 fiber wad is a good start.
G.

Gary, thanks.

I just went on their website. I will call them.
What does GG and DGL stand for?

Cheers
Harry

[Lumpy Grits]

GG=Grease Groove.
PP=Paper Patch.
DGL=Damn Good Lube(I think )It's a bullet lube.

G.

[HarryH]

GG=Grease Groove.
PP=Paper Patch.
DGL=Damn Good Lube(I think )It's a bullet lube.

G.

New hobby, new acronyms .....

Thanks Gary,

Cheers,
Harry

[HarryH]

A question about case-neck lubing. I don't want to start a new thread.

I will be using a 457-459 expander plug prior to seating my 458 bullets.

When I expand the case mouth should I lube inside the case and how far should I press-in the expander?

Thx,
Cheers,
Harry.

[Lumpy Grits]

I use a Q-tip with a little case lube and just make 1 pass around the inside before using the expander die.
G.

[HarryH]

I use a Q-tip with a little case lube and just make 1 pass around the inside before using the expander die.
G.

Should I expand down to where the bullet base will be?

[Lumpy Grits]

Run the expander down to where the larger step just enters the case mouth about .020-.030 deep.
G.