BPCR Attendance Decline.....

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ian45662
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Re: BPCR Attendance Decline.....

Post by ian45662 »

I personally have never met a finer group of people than those who participate in the black powder shooting sports. That goes for bpcr and muzzleloader shooters. N-SSA, target rifle, silhouette , so on and so forth. I went to my first match a little over 10 years ago and just couldn’t imagine not wanting to compete not just for the sake of competing but time spent with people who I consider family. The actual competing represents a small portion of what makes these sports so enjoyable.
Clarence
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Re: BPCR Attendance Decline.....

Post by Clarence »

I agree with what Cody said. BPCR does require the mastery of a number of skills. To the newcomer, it can be overwhelming to start from scratch and learn them all in order to be even reasonably competitive, and face it, most of us are competitive enough that we get discouraged if that doesn't happen reasonably quickly.

Recruitment and mentorship is the answer.

A suggestion: Find a younger (or older) person who has expressed interest in BPCR. Invite him (or her) to a match. Loan a rifle. Load ammo. Coach them or arrange for a coach if you don't have the skills. Pay their match fee. And when they start to get excited about this sport, help them with the purchase of equipment, and allow them to use some of yours until they can afford to purchase it (which will probably not be all at once). If they start with purchasing a rifle, cast their bullets and/or load their ammo, involving them in the process so they learn the skills over time while they are enjoying the sport.

As you do this, you will help them avoid purchasing unnecessary or inferior equipment, and you can have them trained in use of that equipment by the time they get their own.

Clarence
jackrabbit
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Re: BPCR Attendance Decline.....

Post by jackrabbit »

Great post Clarence. Shooters loaned and gave me a lot of stuff to get started.
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desert deuce
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Re: BPCR Attendance Decline.....

Post by desert deuce »

Not sure there is a universally successful equation to get people involved in our sport much less keeping them involved. Peaking their interest is one thing insuring their participation and continued involvement is quite another. I know my journey began when my teenage son, who is now 40, took an interest.

At that time it seemed that Quigley Down Under introduced the public to some of the "glamour" and details of Buffalo Guns and their potential and positively influenced participation. Perhaps a siren song began then extended into the present interest in Gong Shoots. The largest BPCR match on the planet after all is named The Quigley. Which, by the way, is held only once a year.

Much the same phenomenon occurred with the upswing in Single Action Shooting Society and the epic movie "Lonesome Dove" which is still an international favorite. Interestingly enough there is somewhat of a glamorous edge associated with the American West and livestock raising. Anyone engaged in that activity knows there is actually little glamour and a lot of hard work involved in that career. Some on this forum may have an insight into that activity.

Fortunately we do have our own Gunzine, The Black Powder Cartridge News and a dedicated to our sport commercial endeavor in Buffalo Arms. Clearly our participation should include paid up subscriptions in BPCN and practically a first name basis with Dave Gullo. This is the fuel to the foundation for the potential fire we are needing to rekindle around America. The seed is here. Is it the husbandry that is lacking or what?
Sometimes you get the chicken, and sometimes you get the feathers!
Woody
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Re: BPCR Attendance Decline.....

Post by Woody »

I agree with all above on being a helpful enthusiast and mentor of this sport. I've shot a number of shooting disciplines over the years and BPCR has held my interest the longest and I'm not tiring yet. I've loaned rifles and loaded ammo and coached new shooters in their first several matches. Just this past Thursday, at our local range, I provided a rifle and ammo so a new shooter could shoot. Some have continued to show up and shoot, some not. My days of master class shooting seem to be behind me, but I enjoy helping others who can carry-on this journey and beat me.

Woody
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desert deuce
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Re: BPCR Attendance Decline.....

Post by desert deuce »

Has anyone else noticed that the shooting crowd was happier seeing you show up at a match when you were a AA shooter or even a AAA shooter than they were when you made master? Could be motivation to step down a class or two to attract more shooters?
Sometimes you get the chicken, and sometimes you get the feathers!
Jim Kidwell
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Re: BPCR Attendance Decline.....

Post by Jim Kidwell »

The interest is there. I have tutored many newbies in my loading room over the years, but the problem is when we get into casting 101, they suddenly have second thoughts in putting the effort into it. I have had some that invested in lead pots, moulds, etc. and then never show up again.....Alas

If there was a supplier that could provide close to match grade lead bullets, you would see an increase in attendance. The supplier would have a steady source of income. The problem is there are no automated moulding machines available for large consistent weight lead bullets. Casting by hand commercially would be a non rewarding occupation, ergo, no commercial bullets. Anyone interested in a business venture? :)

It's not the cost of our sport, it is the dedication to put in the labor...............
....................................Jim
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Kurt
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Re: BPCR Attendance Decline.....

Post by Kurt »

I don't think Michael Johnsons mention of the cost is out of line.
I have heard several times when asked if are you going to the Nationals or are you going to AZ or some other place for the match and the reply is usually "cant afford it"
A lot of shooters on a fixed income cant spend $1000. plus for entry fees, travel expense and lodging plus take the expenses of Family priority's cross country to some big match.
Entry fees raise at a lot of matches every year or two and then they scratch their heads wondering why the attendance drop.
I know some of you don't like to hear this "high cost" but it's fact.
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Maj. Forrest Smith
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Re: BPCR Attendance Decline.....

Post by Maj. Forrest Smith »

If it was just "one thing" we could fix it quickly and everything would be better again. It is the combination of all the things mention above plus probably a few others. Ranges having money for maintenance, Ranges losing their property, the match directors dying, wore out and/or no one stepping up to be the new match director. Finding a spotter/friend to shoot with, so you don't have to buy a mat, score board, sticks & spotting scope at the beginning. Learning to spot and finding a new spotter when your old partner quits. Cost is a fact, but that is one thing that most will over-come if the desire is great enough. Casting is pain, time consuming to learn & do, it a fair size start up cost plus on going cost of lead mix, great therapy and quite rewarding when you hit the target. Finding time to go to match, finding a friendly bunch when you arrive, so might feel you would fit right in. Our sport requires us to have spotter/partner. Not always easy to find partner when you are new. To many of us just want to shoot with our own partner.
Solution? Tell people what type of shooting you do. Never found anyone that was interested in old buffalo style rifles. Invite them to a match. Make sure visitors to the range are greeted friendly, show them how a match is run and then show them the different rifle used. They are there because they hear about these rifles or saw them in movies/TV and wonder if is something they would like to do. More important, invite them back! Someone already said it, invite people to the match, be a friend, be a mentor and be spotter for new shooters. Help the match director. He is only one person. Volunteer to help go work on the range (often), volunteer to take money at sign up, help figure scores up at the end. Go help set up or break down the range at a match. Help post scores on the score sheet. Maybe help telling about the match on line or an email to shooters. The $15 to $20 entry fee for a monthly match shouldn't be your only investment in attending a successful match. Like I said, it isn't just one thing!
Aero
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Re: BPCR Attendance Decline.....

Post by Aero »

Interesting thread and one that could be seen on a number of internet chat boards that cover several different shooting disciplines.

The cost issue is bullshit. The same guys that whine about one thing being too expensive have no problem spending money on something else. It's about choices in that respect. Time is another argument, but virtually any game that guys play is going to require time and money to succeed. Success is measured differently by different people, but even the "I'm just competing against myself" guys will need to invest significant time and money to play any games. Not interested in competing, but still want to have a "hobby"? Good luck finding something to do that you won't have to open your wallet for.

BPCR as commonly referred to is really 3 different games. Gong shoots, Silhouette, and target rifle. 2 of those games are (were?) sanctioned. When the sanctioning body decides to kill the things it sanctions (competitive shooting), either directly through its competition people or through surrogates that claim to have the sports best interests in mind, it's hard to imagine the sport will last long or bring in new people. And if a specific discipline is targeted (no pun intended), well now, we can pretty well see the results of that, can't we.

After nearly 20 years of playing the BPCR games I've moved on to other things. During the time I shot it and even still today, I have spent literally hundreds of hours helping guys with everything I could to get them into the sport. Even going so far as to find rifles for guys to buy to get them started or spending hours going over loading, casting, or even shot process and wind reading. Only one or two out of maybe 20 are playing the game. Few went to a match and of the ones that did, almost none made a second


I hear gong shoots still draw pretty good crowds, at least here in the west.
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bpcr shooter
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Re: BPCR Attendance Decline.....

Post by bpcr shooter »

Ive more than once offered someone to shoot my rifle at the range and they always seem a little nervous, especially when you pull out a 45-100 with a PP bullet sticking out. The new shooters who are fancied with there 223's, 6.5 CM, 308's, etc see that cartridge and shy away. I tell them it will be fine just wear this pad, its just a big shove. ONE shot is usually all it takes and their eyes light up, and they are wearing the biggest grin they can, even better if they hit steel way out!! Why after that do then not want to get into the sport?? Ive sat and talked with a few for hours and it seems that BP has gotten a bad rap for being dirty, inaccurate, PITA to load for, hard to clean your gun after, blah blah. explaining these things still doesn't seem to warm them over. I believe that its something you grow up with and continue, or once your old enough to know, that there is more to just buying loaded ammo off some gun shops shelf. I would also think that most of us started out shooting some kind of BP muzzle loader in our youth, Im going out on a limb but, I would say there are very low numbers of kids/young adults learning this way anymore, maybe thats how we got the itch for the smell of BP?
maybe just the thought of having to make your own rounds and not having anyone to show you is a problem?? Im sure there are many different things we could attribute to the decline in BPCR shooting, but I do know if we don't invite, don't show, don't pass on info, don't help, the sport will die. being a younger guy (40yrs) I hope to keep doing this another 40 and getting anyone who wants to shoot a chance!

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Aviator
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Re: BPCR Attendance Decline.....

Post by Aviator »

Well, as someone who has only been shooting black powder for just under 2 years, and didn't even own a rifle until about 8 years ago, I am a relative newcomer. I had been to a few informal fun gong shoots, and had been to Quigley a few times, but with smokeless powder.

I saw folks at Quigley shooting black powder, and had heard of silhouette shoots, but knew almost nothing about it, and didn’t figure I would ever try it. But something clicked along the way, and decided I wanted to try both BPCR Silhouette and Target Rifle.

A lot of what has been said earlier in this thread rings true for me.

I was not at all sure if I would fit in, but I went to my first silhouette match at Friendship, Indiana for their last match of 2018. I shot iron sight with a 45-70 Shiloh, and the first day shot a wopping 11 of 40! The next day, the planets apparently were aligned, and I shot a 29! It took awhile before I shot a score that high again….

I found that folks were generally friendly and helpful to the new guy. I am not very outgoing, and am slow to make friends, but I had a good enough experience to want to go back. And after going back to Friendship for 10 weekends since then, I can tell you they are a great bunch of guys and gals! I have been to a few other BPCR silhouette ranges along the way also, and have always been made to feel like I fit in.
One of the experienced guys at Friendship (Woody) took a particular interest in helping me progress with this style of shooting, and learning to make appropriate wind calls. That really means a lot to this new guy, and we have become good friends. His scores suffered due to shooting with someone with so little experience, and that realization made me want to progress faster, as I didn’t want to let him down. I still have a lot to learn, but getting the help I did was a huge help in maintaining enthusiasm.

Similar circumstances occurred when trying Target Rifle. Found that it was generally a great bunch of guys who were willing to help a new guy. One of the experienced guys (Desert Deuce) again took an interest in helping me progress. It is greatly appreciated, and we have become good friends also.

Cost is not a trivial factor. Travel expenses add up fast, when it’s 200 miles to the nearest silhouette match, and quite a lot farther to most target rifle matches.

Neither is the amount of time and effort required to develop a decent load for your rifle. There are other things in my life that have suffered due to picking up this hobby…..

But I would say that maintaining enthusiasm, feeling like you belong, and developing friendships are the most important.
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desert deuce
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Re: BPCR Attendance Decline.....

Post by desert deuce »

Aero's second paragraph needs to be reread and read again. It is true that some of the people purporting to support our sport are actually working to undermine it. If you have not figured that out by now you have not been paying attention.

Then you have long term match directors like the Legends of Lodi that have been putting on matches for us there for years and every year it is a struggle to schedule the range for our matches. Their Target Regional and Creedmoor Cup are great matches and very well run.

Robert Garibay and the BPTRA are striving to build up participation at Colorado Rifle Club and hope to expand further. It is a work in progress.

Then you have the Arizona Western International Shoot AZWINS the first two weeks of March 2021 at the Ben Avery Range in Phoenix, Arizona. One match where you can shoot silhouette, mid range, creedmoor and 1,000 yard world championship plus a .22 creedmoor shot with .22 BPCR legal rifles at 200 yards on reduced paper targets simulating 200, 300 & 600 yards. More shooting than available anywhere else in the world and on the best range on the planet. A bigger, better opportunity to shoot BPCR has never existed anywhere so the opportunity is here and it is here now. What are you doing the first two weeks of March anyway. Phoenix weather in March is usually like nowhere else but you can get sunburned.
Sometimes you get the chicken, and sometimes you get the feathers!
ChrisF
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Re: BPCR Attendance Decline.....

Post by ChrisF »

I don’t get to shoot as much as I want to die to finances and health issues. But I do hope the BPCR games continue and get stronger.
Glen Ring
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Re: BPCR Attendance Decline.....

Post by Glen Ring »

The various shooting sports ebb and flow with numbers of shooters. When the BPCR numbers were at their highest there were smokeless shooting sports. In the last few years the numbers of BPCR shooters has been HIGHER than High power shooters at the nationals. Folks will blame whoever and whatever to explain the number fluctuations. In the 70's and 80's the pistol sports changed from one handed target shooting to more combat oriented disciplines and the numbers increased because the sports were fun . Most shooters shoot more than one discipline and I think the difference is in the way the matches are ran. Make the match fun and the shooters will come back. We just enjoyed a FUN Lever action regional we put on In OKC and had 50 shooters from 11 different states compete. Several of those will meet us in Tulsa next weekend for a highpower and smallbore rifle regional. In the highpower match I'll be shooting a lever action, iron sighted 30-30 because it's FUN to do that. We make matches FUN and the folks in Tulsa make matches FUN and we talk almost daily. In October we will put on a long range 22 match at OKC out to 200 meters . Any 22, any sight, targets that will challenge the most expensive 22 rig, but are doable by the squirrel hunter that knows his rifle.

THE most important factors, I think, is taking care of match directors and ranges. LOTS of folks want to shoot , FEW want to put on a match.
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