44-77 Reamer

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Dutch44
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44-77 Reamer

Post by Dutch44 »

Called Pacific Tool and Gauge to discuss a 44-77 finishing reamer. I want to use PP 435 gr. so I wondered what throat dimensions would be necessary to be able to seat the bullet out. Do I need to use a fixed or floating pilot? Obviously, I am not a machinist? Any help is appreciated.
MikeT
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Re: 44-77 Reamer

Post by MikeT »

Are you going to load groove diameter PP bullets. If so, why?

Keep on hav'n fun!
MikeT
77 sharps
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Re: 44-77 Reamer

Post by 77 sharps »

When you see the old paper patch cartridges with the bullets seated way out of the case, that is not done by cutting a long throat or free bore in the chamber. Those bullets are patched to bore diameter or smaller depending on the use. In the past when having Shiloh build me a rifle, I called them and they sent me the reamer drawings by email.
Dutch44
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Re: 44-77 Reamer

Post by Dutch44 »

Majority shooting will be with PP. I called Dave Manson and talked with them to get their thoughts. I'm going to slug my bore and send them the slug with sized cases. Speaking with them they suggested a 50 thou. free bore with 1 degree leade and floating reamer. Talked to Dave Mos and he suggested I send him a slug of the throat once it is chambered so he can fit the PP to the dimensions.
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Distant Thunder
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Re: 44-77 Reamer

Post by Distant Thunder »

Dutch,

You didn’t give us much information on the rifle you are working with or your intended use so the best I can offer is just basic information on paper patch bullets.

If you haven’t already you should do a search on this forum and historicshooting.com because there is an amazing amount of information in those forums that you should find useful.

Not all paper patch bullets are the same, there are 3 basic types, 1) the groove diameter type, 2) the bore diameter type and 3) the 2-Diameter type. The 2nd type is the kind seen if most if not all the old pictures.

The type of shooting done with BPCRs will mostly fall into two categories, hunting/ plinking and target. There are different designs of PPBs that are suited to the intended purpose.

The groove diameter PPB is loaded similar to a groove diameter grease groove bullet and must be seated into the case to a depth that is at or just short of the beginning of the rifling. To be seated way out like the old pictures there would have to be a longish throat or freebore which would pretty much require all bullets to be seated out to avoid a long jump to the rifling.

The bore dimeter PPB is the one in the old pictures, with few exceptions, and is patched to a diameter that is a slip fit into the bore and sits on top of the lands of the rifling. It can have a slight taper or be straight sided. It can be seated fairly deep in the case or seated out as much as desired with a minimum of the bullet base in the case and still be fixed ammo. The case necks are usually sized to fit the undersize bullet. One advantage of this design is that the bullet being a close fit in the bore rests in as near as perfect an alignment as is possible with the barrel. Another advantage of the bore diameter PPB is that seating it out frees up more powder capacity and seating deeper allows for somewhat lighter loads. In the .44-77 your seating is only really limited to the length of your bullet and the length of the case neck. The bullet needs to be in the case probably at least .090” and can be as deep as you want as long as the base and the wad are not below the neck. The only other limitation on seating depth would be what your particular rifle likes with a given bullet.

The 2-Diameter or dual diameter type is a blend of the first two in that the forward portion of the shank is patched to or just under the bore diameter and the rearward portion is patched at or slightly over the groove diameter. This type tends to give good alignment with the bore and eliminates the need to neck size your brass to hold the bullet in place while handling and loading. The seating depth is determined by the length of the groove diameter portion and any freebore/leade cut into your chamber. Like the groove diameter type it is loaded to a length that it either is touching or just off the rifling. So also like the groove diameter type it’s seating is pretty much fixed.

All three types can provide excellent accuracy, and each has benefits and disadvantages. Knowing what your chamber and barrel dimensions are an important part in choosing the best type for YOUR rifle and designing a PPB to fit YOUR rifle.

I use all three types depending on the rifle and each works well having been specifically designed for each of MY rifles. I will say that I prefer the bore diameter type, but it is not the best choice for all chambers.

My .44-77 is an old B series Shiloh that I had Kirk rebarrel it to .44-77 and cut his standard grease groove into my Krieger 1 in 17 twist barrel. I have used all three types of PPBs in this rifle, and I like the bore diameter best in that chamber. The Shiloh standard chamber has proven to me to the best readily available chamber for shooting PPBs. A special tight chamber or one with a long freebore is not necessary to be able to shoot PPBs successfully, but almost any chamber can be made to work well if the bullet is properly designed and fit.

A 435-grain bullet should be somewhere between 1.200” and 1.250” long (depending on nose design) and would be stabilized in almost any rifling twist of 1 in 20 or faster. It is very important with any type of bullet to match the length of the bullet to the twist rate of the barrel.

As I said not all PPBs are the same and not all rifles/chambers are the same. Paper patch bullets are very easy to load and will shoot with excellent accuracy, but you need to understand what is required and pay attention to a few important details.

It starts with the type of shooting you want to do and knowing what is inside your barrel.
Jim Kluskens
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Dutch44
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Re: 44-77 Reamer

Post by Dutch44 »

Jim and everyone thanks for the informative reply. I should have given more info. My experience with PP were tapered .45's and 40's all BP loads. I have taken 5 whitetails with an original Borchardt sporter in 45-70. The PP bullets I used were tapered 550gr. 40:1. My best group with that load, 65 gr Goex Cartridge was 5 rounds in 15/16ths at 100 yds. The .40 mold is a tapered as well. I tried groove diameter but they were not a good fit. T

That's why I thought I'd have Dave Mos make a tapered off of the lead slug of the throat after it is chambered. Am I on the right path with a 1 degree leade and 50 thou. freebore for a tapered PP? The rifle is a Freund Sharps built by Shon Eychaner. Green Mountain .44 barrel which I'm going to slug this morning to get actual measurements to give to Manson Reamers people along with sized cases.
Nuclearcricket
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Re: 44-77 Reamer

Post by Nuclearcricket »

I have 2 GM .44 cal barrels, one is only a few years old, very smooth and very consistent in the bore diameter. The bore measures .438. The other barrel is older, I picked it up second hand so I don't know the age of it. It also measures .438 on the bore. It does however have a few (2) snug spots that you can feel by pushing a patched bullet through the barrel. A little lapping will take care of that and probably put a slight bit of taper in the bore at the same time. The Grove diameter on the newer one is .446 and the older one is .4465 to .447. The new barrel shoots well with what little I have played with it. The 44-77 with a 480 gr GG bullet over about 79gr of old CTG Goex is quite zippy. It takes rams off the stand quicly. I expect the older barrel to shoot just as well. Both are 17" twist barrels.
Sam
Dutch44
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Re: 44-77 Reamer

Post by Dutch44 »

I was wondering what weight PP I would have made. I was thinking 435 but now, with the 17 inch twist maybe 475 gr. and try to keep it under 1.3.
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Distant Thunder
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Re: 44-77 Reamer

Post by Distant Thunder »

Dutch,

A 475-grain bullet will be about 1.320" to 1.350" long and will work very well in a 17-twist. That length/weight shoots very well in my Krieger barrel. A 17-twist .44 will stabilize a bullet as long as 1.470" or approximately 520 grains. You seem concerned with the length of your bullets and there is not any stability reason to be with a 17-twist.

I never had much luck with tapered PPBs, but some people do. The way I see it you have 2 maybe 3 points of contact and a lot of unsupported bullet. With straight bore diameter bullets seated long I have a maximum amount of contact (alignment). Remember that I am a target shooter and have different requirements with regards to accuracy and I wipe between shots. When hunting most do not wipe between shots.
Jim Kluskens
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Distant Thunder
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Re: 44-77 Reamer

Post by Distant Thunder »

Dutch,

To answer your question on freebore length, .050" is fine. That is what Shiloh specs on most of their reamer drawings including the .44-77. For some reason my .44-77 has a .100" +/- freebore and it's not a problem.

I don't know a lot a about leade angle requirements, but 1 degree sound a bit shallow. I'd have to dig up some reamer drawings to see what I have. Others here would know better.
Jim Kluskens
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Nuclearcricket
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Re: 44-77 Reamer

Post by Nuclearcricket »

The print I have from Pacific Tool shows a freebore of .088 and a lead in angle of 1.5 Deg.
Sam
Dutch44
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Re: 44-77 Reamer

Post by Dutch44 »

Appreciate the help gentlemen. Dave Mos had suggested the 1 degree leade. I'll talk to him again and see what his thoughts are for a 1.5 to 2 degrees. Even though it is primarily a hunting rifle I will shoot a BPCR silhouette match to test my ability with it

DT, if not tapered then are you shooting groove diameter or dual diameter? I'm using BACO's patch paper. Do ya'll have any thoughts regarding thickness or weight of the paper available?
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Distant Thunder
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Re: 44-77 Reamer

Post by Distant Thunder »

Dutch,

I have 5 rifles that I shoot paper patch bullets in. Remembering that I am primarily a target shooter, though I have hunted with my BPCRs, each of my rifles has its idiosyncrasies and I have designed my PPBs to match each rifle. The only two that are even close to the same are my two from Shiloh, my .45-90 and my .44-77. Those two have the standard Shiloh grease groove chambers and other than caliber they are very similar with regard to leade angle and freebore.

In my .45-90 I have only used straight side bore diameter PPBs and it shoots them very well. I don't shoot that rifle much these days, preferring my Hepburn .45-70 for Creedmoor matches.

In the .44-77 I have tried bore diameter, groove diameter and 2-diameter PPBs and it has shot them all fairly well. I have two nose pour adjustable molds in .44 caliber, both are the straight sided type and patch to bore diameter. I never thought I would say it, but I really like these adjustable molds for the .44-77. I find the .44-77 to be very tolerant of different seating depths and thereby allows a wide range of powder charges to be used. Varying charges combined with varying bullet weights gives me a lot of flexibility. That all works best with a straight side bore diameter bullet.

When I spoke of tapered bullets earlier, I was referring to bullets that are tapered pretty much from the base to the ogive. The base being something near groove diameter and the nose being well under bore diameter, basically a cone. I have seen PPBs that have straight sides for some of shank length and then use a taper to reduce the diameter sticking out the case and allow for chambering in a fouled barrel and are used as a hunting bullet where a number of follow up shots might be needed without any fouling control. I've never used such a bullet, but the idea seems sound.

As for paper, I have for a long time been an advocate of 9# onionskin paper, but that is getting harder to get. It is generally around .002" thick. Lately I have been working some thinner (.0015"), more readily available paper, an 8# tracing paper and it is working well in my .44-77. I didn't like the thinner paper at first because I found it difficult to cut patches and wrap my bullets, but like most things in paper patching the more I worked with it the easier it got and now it's something I could do with my eyes closed.

I can't say I see any accuracy advantage in the thinner paper, but it is much easier to get. For target shooting the cast diameter of bullet and the paper thickness need to match to result in the proper fit to the bore of a specific rifle. Although with straight sided bullets they can be easily sized to fit after patching.
Jim Kluskens
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Kurt
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Re: 44-77 Reamer

Post by Kurt »

Jim has put a lot of good guidelines down here.
My early Farmingdale Shiloh has a tight chamber with a close to the original funnel transition into a flat lead. I shoot several different caliber chambers like this in this print. This chamber is pretty typical with what is now normal except for the 5º transition that most chambers have now days turned to a 45º transition. Also the neck diameters are now slightly larger diameters used by different shops building these rifles.
I have rifles with large free bore that are head scratchers when I first worked up loads for but they will also shoot well when you get things that it will shoot. I found that those long free bore chambers you have to feed them what they want and not what you want to feed them :D
The .44-77 is a great caliber that gets bad reports sometimes because of the bottle neck shell but it comes from someone that don't have or shoot one.
kurt .44-77.jpeg
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Dutch44
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Re: 44-77 Reamer

Post by Dutch44 »

Thank you for the diagram and information Kurt.
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