BPTR Classifications

[HHHSharps]

Frank,

I recognize that you have been a leading pioneer in bringing this type of shooting back to life. Those efforts over 40 years do not go unoticed, at least by me. I would say that this places you very near what should be some type of "lifetime achievement award". I also want you to understand that in no way am I dispariging your successes and failures, of which you have had many. I also certainly agree with you that winning is not everything. Oh I could drone on about how the comraderie is all there is...and this would not be a false statement. However, the most joy that I get out of this is when I can coach my shooting partner Dale, to a better score than me. I feel that our individual shooting skills are about as equal to each other as a pair could get. However, as I have stated on this forum before, Dale is a much better spotter than I am and as a result, pulls me up the scoreboard higher than I am able to pull him. A source of great consternation for me. So, I do "endeavor to persevere" at becoming a better coach and spotter.

Also, You infere by using the term "politically correct" and in the next sentence, speak of segments of our society trying to "build self-esteem for trying to do anything "right"". I don't think my desire to regognize the hard work and successes, particularly of the newcommer or struggling shooter, as taking what could be considered a liberal stance and rewarding everyone for just showing up...this last part are my words. You are absolutely right about me trying to build something though. What are we going to do when the Icons, such as yourself and many others, reach a point in life, for numerous reasons, where they can no longer shoot and help mentor the next generation? To my knowlege, shooting matches have been around since the advent of the first rifle. Some are winner take all, but I think history is replete with winners in many divisions or classifications if you will, no matter what the circumstances for the gathering was. As referenced in my original post about the conversation between Eron and I, it is my intention to bring new blood into this sport and get them hooked. One of the best ways I know is to help mentor them. Recognition of their successes has a base in historical fact and I believe the tradition should continue.

Lastly, I respect your opinion and you are right, my opinion holds no more weight than yours. Perhaps because of my life's work, I feel compelled to champion the underdog much too quickly and vocally. We can agree to disagree and still shoot next to each other on the line and have a good time.

I wish you continued shooting success as well,

Eric Halter

[Kenny Wasserburger]

I started shooting NRA Highpower in the Mid 80's as an active competitor. The Classes Marksmen, Sharpshooter, Expert, Master, High Master. This was in my opinion a good thing. Class awards were given in each class that had at least 3 shooters, IE 3 sharpshooters there was 1 award, High Sharpshooter, if 6 Sharpshooters at the match 1st and 2nd were awarded. Same with any other class. To reach Master Class took some doing, and it and Expert were on the heavy side of the Board for shooters Numbers. High Master, which was what we all wanted to attain some day was quite difficult to reach but was do-able just not easy. It Gave the Expert and the new Master shooter a further goal to strive for. Still there where a few High Masters not alot but they were there.

The bulk of the shooters were Experts, Masters, with a very few High masters. Some of the Major matches I attended had as many as 10 places awarded in a class, Camp Perry being one such. I can say with out any doubt the 3 medals I Won, all Expert, at Camp Perry are treasured, along with the patches I earned there. No big deal but to me I can show them in a nice case and am proud of what I did those few years I shot Service Rifle. Even the award points slips of paper you could turn in to get your medal, were stamped (Won at Camp Perry Ohio National Championship) I spent cash for my medals and kept the award slips just because they were stamped Camp Perry nationals and the year.

The Class awards, and the Classes I still think are a good think keeps shooters coming back and trying to better themselves. Lets face it many of us will never be masters, or national Champions, yet our entry into the matches is what keeps it alive and well and pays for it. Ponder that one while you think on only offereing a single award for the Nationals. If no one showes up to shot along with you, There wont be a match too shoot in.

I remember having a very heated discussion with some RI Rifle and Pistol members. and Thats not a shot at Frank btw, at the Oak Harbor Motel one evening while at Perry, the lady was very put out about us Service Rifle shooters and the Image we gave the public, she was a match rifle Shooter (bolt Gun). I pointed out that that years nationals had about 400 Bolt gun (match Rifle shooters) and the other 1350 shooters in attendance where all Service rifle Shooters and we were the ones that were paying for her National Championships. I reminded her that as soon as her liberal Democrat friends got done with us Assualt rifle shooters they be going after her Sniper Rifle Next.

No mater how you divy up the scores to do a reclass, you will end up heavy in Experts, I am not really sure, what if anything we would gain. If you really wanted to divy it up a High Master Class Like Highpower would be more sensible, in my opinion.


The Score book I think is an excellent idea, since NRA highpower folks do not seem to be in any big Hurry to update classifcations in BPTR. This puts the issue firmly in the hands of the shooters-match directors. A decent sized book with half mid-range and half Long range should last a good few years say 12-15 pages of each, enough to say hold 50-60 matches per disipline.

The History of BPCR is so firmly tied to the NRA even though they seem to be totally out of touch with that these days. Still we have Jon doing his level best and a fine job also of trying to keep BPTR alive and well.

Once you attempt to be exclusive instead of inclusive, you will lose shooters, Period. Frank would you prefer a nationals where you, Doc L, Gullo, Eron and say Mike Rix, Steve Baldwin, a couple others are the only shooters in attendance? I don't know who would pull targets for you guys but that sure would be one dull match.

Our sport is the richer for the many that attend it, and would be a sad dull thing with a dozen or so shooters showing up for a Single award. My Opinion.

KW
The Lunger

[Steve Rhoades]

A double shot of Makers for Kenny!

[Brent]

A double shot of Makers for Kenny!

Steve,

Man, that would only be a wee dram for the lad; a tease, not enough to please...damn that alliteration again....

Alliteration is a literary device in which two or more consecutive words (or words that are nearby in the same sentence) start with the same letter. It is often used in poetry, literature, slogans, and other propaganda because it is usually impressive and memorable. Another common usage is in tongue-twisters.

Peter Piper picked a peck of pickled peppers.
We felt dreary and dismal in the darkness of the night.

And a famous one from Edgar Allan Poe's "The Bells":

Hear the loud alarum bells--
Brazen bells!
What a tale of terror, now, their turbulency tells!

[Brent]

I just know ol' Merriam-Webster's definition
Definition of ALLITERATION

: the repetition of usually initial consonant sounds in two or more neighboring words or syllables (as wild and woolly, threatening throngs) —called also head rhyme, initial rhyme

Head rhyme, not butt rhyme...

But I'm not the english major here...

[DogMan]

I have noticed that there are no comments from "rookies" or "newcomers" regarding this discussion. I fall into that category and would like to share my thoughts. From reading all of the posts, it looks like working out a fair classification system and attracting/keeping new shooters to BPTR are the main goals.
As far as classification goes, I wonder if Kenny has the best suggestion with adding a High Master classification? Guys like Kenny, Jimbo and way too many others to mention, spent years of trial and error working up loads, fouling control, Etc.Etc. I come into the sport and look online. I take a look at what everyone else worked hard for and use the bullet, powder, lube, Etc. that seems to work the best, for the best shooters. I go out to my first match and shoot a master class score.
My point is that the sport has progressed a lot and due to modern technologies, I think it may be too easy to get into the highest classification of Master? That would indicate the same thing for the lowest classification. Make Sharpshooter the lowest classification so we don't end up with too many classifications? Just offering another view.

I think that keeping this great sport alive and well is the most important goal. I would like to see more incentives for new shooters to join this sport. I don't know the best way to do that. I know how to do that with young shooters. You have several age categories, experience categories, gender based categories and so on. You print up 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th place certificates for each of those categories and do what ever it takes to make everyone feel like they are all winners and keep them excited to participate.
I don't think that we need that kind of recognition for BPTR when guys like me (50) are the youngsters in the crowd. If anyone does, I will print up a bunch of participation awards and present them
I come to the matches because of the great people that you get to meet, It gets me away from work, and because shooting is what I love to do.

Thanks to everyone that is participating in this topic. I am confident that all of us will be well represented when the decisions are made. Thanks to those of you "driving this bus" for your efforts and contributions to BPTR so that I can keep shooting!!!

Dale Weese

[semtav]

Just a thought.
If you are going to become a stand alone entity “BPTR”, maybe one should think outside of the box, and not copy Silhouette at all. Become more like a real sport than a hodge podge of events.

Three or four classes. (whatever you want to call them)

Start out with State events. Montana State BPTR match(es), Wyoming State BPTR match(es) etc. Anyone can shoot, anyone can win and get winner trophy per each category. Only State residents get the State Championship Trophies.

Top 3 or 4 (depending on population of shooters per state) in each state in each class advance to National Championship in Raton.

If a state doesn’t have matches, participant can go to the closest state that does.

National Championship would be shot by winners from each state competing for national championship (individual) and Team State.

State and National champions in each class must advance to next class the next year
I’m guessing you could get more participants in the National Shoot if you had more people representing their state at Nationals.

More to come

I’m ready to be flamed

Brian

[deerhuntsheatmeup]

Folks,

Back in 05-08 my friend Lee and I would enter mid range @ Raton as expert. We had both earned the classification shooting position at Bogue Chitto Ms. Our match director, always reported scores.

It never failed at Raton for the NRA to have him and I classed in Sharpshooter. We told them every year we were expert class shooters, but it fell on deaf ears.

Now jump to 2011, Lee placed very high in ss, and the NRA called his name, but with held his awards. Shortly after getting home, he received his new classification card. Since the "horses mouth" is watching this thread, he can explain this action.

Having watched this happen over a period of years, I cannot blame people for just shooting the class on their card. For so many years, the governing body did not give a shit about keeping classifications updated, now they do. Yahoo.......

Good luck with your proposed changes, I hope it works out for ya'll.

[Raymond Hanson]

This is in response to Jonathons post on the 30th of March. I would like to enlighten you on a few issues. First. Thank you for identifying yourself as the key person I was referring too in regards to skills in the competitive shooting department! Second. You seem to have things backwards in regards to the Whittington Center. After doing business with the Center for 14 years. Spending $600 a year on the average. I had to have my bill corrected and my credit card refunded three times in ten days. My reaction to never stay at the Whittington Center again until they are under "new management" is exactly the same as I would have for any other business that treated me in that manner. Third. Being WARNED by you is a perfect example of what is wrong at the NRA currently. Warned about what? Being critical of poor performance? Suggesting that members work around the problem until it gets cured from within? I would love to see you excommunicate me for being critical of a chronic problem using the King's english! Fourth. The United States Constitution gives us the right to "Keep and Bear Arms" The NRA does not. We as members send money to the NRA to take care of promoting the shooting sports and help ensure our Constitutional rights are lobbied in our best interests. I would like to point out that the most significant successful case to be decided by the Supreme Court in the last 30 years in regards to gun rights was presented by an individual attorney who REFUSED any help or affiliation of any kind from or with the NRA. Last but not least. Roy Rogers horse was a palomino. Not white. His name was Trigger. I ride an American Saddle Bred. A sorrel. His name is Rocky. Take care Raymond Hanson

[LEIGHTON]

All,

There's more good points being made here since I last checked. Plus, I've also achieved my daily entertainment requirement.

I like the point Dale made about new shooters that benefit from you veterans, in particular, load development, techniques, etc. It gives them the benefit of starting with really decent scores, unlike the guys that had to do all the R&D to figure this game out. This should be a major selling point in getting new shooters. Most of the work has been done by you guys. Loads and technique have been pioneered by you guys. It's a lot like HDTV's-Sony and the other major players had to pay for the R&D of HDTV, then they forked out all the bread needed for production. Now, companies like Visio can sell you the same TV, with the same components, for much cheaper since they didn't pay for the R&D and don't need to make that money back. I’m thankful we've reached this level since it makes black powder shooting an easier sell to new, inexperienced shooters.

It never failed at Raton for the NRA to have him and I classed in Sharpshooter. We told them every year we were expert class shooters, but it fell on deaf ears.
Now jump to 2011, Lee placed very high in SS, and the NRA called his name, but withheld his awards. Shortly after getting home, he received his new classification card. Since the "horses mouth" is watching this thread, he can explain this action.

I'm not sure exactly what happened here as I don't understand how your question reads. We withheld your award and we called your name? I try my hardest to leave everything in Raton since it's less I have to ship back to DC. Lee Burrow's Day 2 300 YDS High SS in POS? We don't have an award here with that designation which means that someone else picked it up, you guys didn't hang around afterwards to see what happened or we never had it in the first place. It could be all a combination of the aforementioned reasons. I doubt we didn't have it, since we always have excess awards, especially in SS and MK class if you've been reading this thread. Bottom line, we recognized Lee in front of his peers. If for some reason, he didn't get a medal, LET ME KNOW! Don't sit there and harbor grudges when you can let me know there is a problem. I will send him another one. It isn't hard, it'll be mailed right to his house.

Having watched this happen over a period of years, I cannot blame people for just shooting the class on their card. For so many years, the governing body did not give a shit about keeping classifications updated, now they do. Yahoo.......

All this “ya’ll have fun” bullshit is California gay. That’s the worst attitude we can have in regards to the longevity of our sport. I’ll show them, I’ll quit is not the way to make anything better. Don’t pussy-foot around the Internet when we can be mature and fix issues, as they arise, like adults. I give a “shit”. Furthermore, “Yahoo” is an expression I’d use since we’re entering a new era in NRA Black Powder Target Rifle competition and new classifications are a start in the right direction if you guys want to see this discipline last. I’d like to keep you guys on my firing line so communication is something we should work on achieving rather than letting me know something was wrong, a year later, in this thread.

I also agree with Kenny’s High Master proposal-more consistency and standardization is good for our sport. It encourages cross-over shooters and provides similarities and consistencies found in other disciplines-just like what we did with the scoring and marking system this year. With this being said, it’s also important to preserve our own, unique identity. Getting new shooters involved is important and making things easier for them is a positive factor in attaining our goals. Also, fixing this classification issue will breathe new life into our sport from the perspective of making the playing field even which should also provide additional incentive for new shooters trying something different like NRA Black Powder Target Rifle.

And, finally, Ray, I’m not trying to be mean to you or I would’ve dragged your poodle into this conversation. I can tell I struck a nerve, as blatantly displayed in the fervent disregard and reckless abandonment you’ve shown in your grasp of the English language and associated punctuation, as you were obviously hacking away at your keyboard trying to get that last paragraph downrange in a hurry. Take a deep breath, dude. I’ll brush up on my spaghetti westerns and you get some blood-pressure medicine in you ASAP. Just know that I’m a team player so I don’t care if that was directed at me or not. The NRA isn’t the French Navy, so if you take a shot over our bow, I’m going to return fire in defense, every, single time. So we’re clear, I like you as a person and I like having you on my firing line every year. You bring a high degree of competition that is needed at Nationals. To this day, one of my most treasured compliments is as follows, “Jonathan, I’m not going to tell you that you did a good job but I will thank you for giving me my money’s worth.” That was you. If you have a problem, let’s be mature and fix it like men. Enough is enough, call me if you want to bitch or advise-(703) 472-7967. We can talk about last night’s American Idol for all I care, however, from here on out, we’re going to be constructive in these threads instead of demeaning. Nobody wants to read our BS anymore.

[LEIGHTON]

Another thing I forgot to mention-The Lunger is right again when he says that this match and the NRA share the same history. I mean, last year, the Castle Trophy that Doc Lay and Dan Theodore held in victory is the same Castle Trophy held by COL John Bodine in his 1873 Creedmoor victory. This is the NRA's match and we can work together to restore it's prestige.

You guys can really benefit from listening to guys like Kenny. His invaluable experience doesn't just stem from Silhouette and gong matches either. Kenny has competed extensively in across-the-course at the National-level. Across-the-course has a lot more similarities in this game over Silhouette so keep that in mind as that's the direction we need to be heading instead of catering to Silhouette. We are on our own now. With committee changes in the future, this discipline will be governed by the shooters, for the shooters. We can take it wherever you guys want to go...

[Jim Kidwell]

Jonathan,

Is your stat department capable of telling us the national distribution of class categories in Mid Range Position / Prone / Scope and Creedmoor Iron, Scope and Tollefson?
This might give us a better picture of how the classes stack up against one another........................................Jim

[Steve Rhoades]

Jonathon,
Also, any progress in getting the National records established last year recognized?
Although there were no new records established this year at the Phoenix match, several were set last year in Phoenix that are not yet published.
Steve R.
AZ

[COBPTR]

As one of the younger people in this sport I was drawn in by shooting my first match with Dad at The Quigley in Forsyth, MT. I thought it was a little hokey at first to see half the participants dressed up and struttin around. Everything was made clear as to why I was there after I fired his 50/90 for the first time on practice day and heard the gong go off next to me through a distorted 2way radio.
As a younger competitor I started attending silhouette matches and even a World Creedmoor in Lodi, in ’08. I couldn’t have had more fun. People were nice and welcoming and it didn’t hurt that my Dad won the grand prize, a C. Sharps 44/90. Now I’m hooked on longrange!
Since, I’ve attended all the competitions I’m able to.
I was happy as a new shooter I could enter as a Marksmen or Sharpshooter. If it was one class only I probably would have quit early on because of the years of catch up I’d have to do might not be worth it.
The short term goal of getting to Sharpshooter and then Expert made it worth it and gave you a gauge of progress. I believe the class system remains a valuable tool. I wouldn’t be opposed to 3 classes though.
In a perfect world most sports are setup to narrow the field so that at Nationals you have the top shooters only. Until our attendance gets to that point I get to shoot with my Dad at the pinnacle event in our sport. What a prize! I don’t see a need to change that until we have enough shooters. Then we can make another decision.
Johnathan keeps making the point that this is in our hands. We need to elect a small body of participants/experts like the Wasserburgers, Theodores, Monikowskis, Shavers, etc.. that have a history behind them but are forward thinking enough to make it relevant for the shooters of the 21st century. How is Johnathan or anyone at the NRA going to make hard decisions by seeing us bicker in an online forum? We need to have one clear voice that they can at least give us a yay or neigh on.
Just let the pillars of our sport decide on scorebooks, classes, etc.. and everyone will go along. I agree that before we start talking about World Competitions we need to get our affairs in order here first.
I think after we fix and establish what we want in our sport with proposed elected leaders we move on to phase 2. How we get new shooters into the sport?
This sport takes time, money, reading, math and a lot of crap in general. The only way to trick younger people into that is by advertising in some sort of way. To me the Creedmoor matches decide who the best rifle shot in the world is, period. No scopes, no smokeless, old guns, etc.. Advertise it that way. Pitch it that way to your friends, neighbors, kids and so on. The NRA started something cool last year with including us in their blog updates. Let’s ask them to do this for Regional Comps. around the country as well. Like it or not we need to head that way.
Another idea would be to have a rewarded Father/Son category. They do it for fishing, why not us? It makes for a better pitch to your kids or mentee if there’s a prize at the end.
The last idea I can think of is having some sort of State Category associated with Nationals. Where a Wyoming, Colorado, Texas, Montana as examples can have a combined shooter score with an even number of participants from each state lead to a trophy. Some good recruiting and motivation to get new shooters involved would come from this. People would feel more motivated to come if their “State Pride” was on the line. If I got to talk smack to Jimbo, Bryan and Kenny for a year that would be worth it alone!

This sport and prize has been around well over a hundred years. Let’s not lose it on our watch.


Robert G.

[beltfed]

COBPTR/Robert G

YOU ARE RIGHT ON.
Hope to meet you at Lodi next month

beltfed/arnie