Muzzleloader vs. cartridge?

[MudChild]

I'm pretty new to blackpowder shooting. My question is probably a little silly to those of you who have been shooting a while, but here it is: What is the difference between a .50-90 in a cartridge and a .50 bullet atop 90 grains of blackpowder in a muzzleloader? Or is there even a difference? I know that a lot of people don't trust muzzeloaders out to any thing past about 100 yards or so, so what's the difference?

[Kelley O.Roos]

MudChild,

Yep there is a difference You put the powder in a brass cartridge in one and you put the powder down a barrel in the other


Kelley O.

[MudChild]

Ok, ok! I set myself up for that one. I meant why is a bp cartridge rifle used for shooting out to 1000 yards, when, from my understanding, most people will only trust a muzzeloader out to about 200 yards or so.

Have I made myself clear to the Irish Master of the Obvious?

[ffffgdave@yahoo.com]

the guns shot here on this forum typicaly have 350 to540 grain bullets or there about. some probably more... a 50 cal muzzel loader with ball with shoot (aprox)180 grain bullets with very poor balistic coeficent.. the longer bullets will stabilize with much faster twist rate as in 1 to 18. where round ball is about 1 -48 to 1 -77.. the round ball runs out of twist pretty quick at 125 yards with windresistence etc and the balistic coeficeint slows it down to about half velocity at 100 yards as 50-90 will loos much less speed in comparison.. the heaveir bullet also seals much better as the patched ball has cloth as its seal and can give a lot more variances than the bullets can have if loaded properly.. accuracy in competent hands is not that far difeerent with ml ive seen, under one inch groups with peeps on good shooter on good day.. this is rare tho.. but after 100 yards the little ml 50 runs out of everything where the 50-90 is just starting to shine.. bullet wieght and twist and balistic coeeficent is really in its favor.. the 50 90 also has much much more power...good luck dave.

[Kelley O.Roos]

MudChild,

Couldn't help myself. At the International long range chamionships at Bisley England there were two muzzleloader competitor's from France. I believe they were shooting 45 Calibers with paper patched bullets and I'm not sure of the powder charge except it looked like a lot. Those guys did well concidering they were under a handicap. A cartridge gun can just load and shoot and the shooter doesn't change postion or lose track of the conditions. The muzzle loader guy has to get up reload, lay down and start all over again. I think if loaded properly the muzzle loader can do just as well as the cartridge rifle.Remember the muzzle loder guys were shooting paper patched bullets not round balls.


Kelley O.

[MudChild]

French were using muzzleloaders, eh? What is that, current military issue now, or something.

So now I understand. It's not that there's a Patron Saint of Cartridge Rifles or anything; just better and heavier bullets in better (than my in-line, anyway)guns.

[Trigger Dr]

Mudchild,
I am really new at this type gun, (1863 Sharps percussion) it is a spaghetti version in 54 cal, and uses loose powder behind a 420 ge hollowbase bullet. I have only shot it a few times ( 15-20), but have decided that it has potential that my 54 cal in line and side lock definately lack.Groups were fair out to 300 yds then the RAIN and I mean R A I N hit 1.5 inches in 12 hours. for using just the cheap barrel sights (Buckhorn and silver blade) 10 inches for 7 rounds aint too bad for trifocals and shakey hands. Like sabove, the heavier longer bullets and the tighter fit, bullet to bore, do make a big difference. I tried it with round ball and Buffalo ballets, and could not even tell where they were landing. Go figure?
Trigger Dr

[The Montanan]

MudChild

If you do research you can find articals on "Long Range Muzzleloading" I used to have a TC Express in .50 cal, 32" barrel set up with a rear tang sight and front globe. I used to shoot a 580-gr pp conical over 90 gr of FFg. One day I went over to see Longrider who sometimes post here. He's the one that got me invovled with BPCR in the first place.

At any rate I was shooting along side of Longrider at a target we both were hitting at 560 yards.

One of the differances with the BPC loader and the Muzzleloader is consistancy of powder compression each and every time. Others have mentioned when loading a muzzleloader you must change positions and so on. Consistancy is the key.

The Creedmoore match held long ago had two teams shooting at 1,000 yards. Only numbers in points seperated the winners. The US team I believed used Trapdoors while the Irish team used muzzleloaders, and both used black powder go figure.

[Jim Watson]

As I recall, in the early Creedmoor matches, the US team shot mostly Remington Rolling Blocks, the Irish used Rigby muzzleloaders. The main advantage to the breechloaders was that it was easy to wipe the barrel for every shot.

[CrazyDog]

No one has mentioned the Whitworth rifle used by the Confederates in the Civil war. It resembled a Springfield muzzleloader but was .45 cal. The bore was hexagonal instead of cut rifled and took a 575 grain hollow base hexagonal bullet. It was capable of exceptional accuracy to 1000 yds.

[ffffgdave@yahoo.com]

i was talking to an oldtimer about muzzeloaders and power to ammend my above comments... the old buckc and ball loads he said with fg got some very impressive velocity at lowere pressures than modern guns.. up to 1600-1900 feet per second according to him with front stuffing paper cartrige flintlocks used up to and sometimes in the civil war with devistating effects.. .. he also went into some smooth bore rifles in 10 and 12 guage , these were cartrige guns he was talking about.. 700 grain slugs with hollow points, exploding cartriges etc, with enough velocity to kick butt on indian elephants.. he claimed that the modern volocities of rb muzzloaders is held quite a bit below the military loads of past.. quite interesting.. dave...

[ironramrod]

Montanan,

You mentioned in a recent post that you used to shoot a 580 gr. PP bullet in a TC express with good results. I am always interested in better bullets, so could you tell me something about that bullet and patching. I would be interested in knowing if these were commercial or did you cast them yourself. Other stuff like mould maker, lube grooves, nose design, performance on paper and live targets.

I have been an active muzzleloader shooter for many years. My favorite bullet is a 413 gr. long flat nose in .451 cal. shot with a plastic sabot in a .50 cal TC Hawken with a 1:28 Green Mtn. barrel with 110 gr. FFG Goex. Shoots very well and it is a real killer. It really knocks over the chickens and pigs too, if I tighten up the nut behind the buttplate.

I also agree with others that the round ball is a very inefficient projectile. Some years ago the Black Powder Hunter magazine had an article measuring penetration depths in a clay like medium. All bullets tested were shot with 100 gr. FFg at 50 yds. The .50 round ball penetrated uniformly to about 8"; a very poor choice for big game hunting. That would get the bullet about 1/2 way through a big deer; not good. The hard cast lead conicals of long flat nose design and 350 gr. or heavier uniformly penetrated to 40-60" depending on bullet weight with nice 2.5" diam. wound channels almost the entire distance.

Personally, I have never used round balls hunting big game. However, they would likely be considerably more effective when the caliber reaches .625 or so. A ball that size will weigh somewhat over 300 gr. and combined with 150 gr. FFg or so should be a good killer at moderate ranges. The place round balls work very well regardless of caliber is on the trapline or for shooting beaver. I have yet to see anything better for dispatching trapped animals. The pelt has 2 eyeholes, 2 earholes, and 2 bullet holes; a quality pelt to be sure.

[The Montanan]

ironramrod

The 580-gr pp conicals were produced by Bob Parker with Parker Hydra-Con Conicals and were patched by him. Bob used to send me conicals to test for him.

Results on game were very effective to say the least. But I moved on when getting into BPCR and will be using a 530-gr pp bullet with my 45-90 for this years hunting.

[parvenu]

Can't tell you much about muzzel velocity or any of that, what I can tell you is that at approx. 110yds. my 54 cal. smokepole with round ball over 110 grains of FFg dropped a bull elk last year without a problem. Went about 20 yards and keeled over. He was lung shot and the ball was found on the off side, just under the hide. The hide had been stretched but not broken. The ball was intact with slight mushrooming. I probably should have been using softer lead, but the wheel weights did the trick. I haven't had much success in getting good groups at much over 100 yds. I tend to agree that the slower
twist and round balls don't stabilise as well as conicals with a faster twist. Anyway I realy enjoy shooting the rifle and am really looking forward to my new Shilo when it gets done.