20 and 30X scopes on Buffalo rifles?

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Mike Hansen
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20 and 30X scopes on Buffalo rifles?

Post by Mike Hansen »

In his essay "The Buffalo Harvest," cowritten with Charles B. Roth about his days as a Buffalo Runner, Frank H. Mayer describes using Sharps rifles with scopes as powerful as 20 and 30X.

Are there any modern reproductions of these scopes available today? I am only familiar with the MVA and RHO styles, both of which are 6X.

http://www.pbs.org/weta/thewest/resourc ... uffalo.htm

Thanks,

Mike
from Shiloh:
1874 "Military Carbine" (7 1/2 lb, 22" bbl) in .45-70
1874 "Sporter #1" (25 lb, 34" bbl) in .45-70, rechambered to .45-110
Ray Newman
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Post by Ray Newman »

They are the only 2 that I'm aware of. I usually follow anything on 'scopes due to my poor eyesight.

As you may already know, NRS silhouette rules limit magnification to 6X & tube dia. to .75"

I guess if you had the $$, maybe you could convince Gil Parsons, of Parsons Optical Service into building a bigger 'scope & mounts for a larger dia. tube????

www.parsonsscopeservice.com
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Hidehunter
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Post by Hidehunter »

Frank Mayer's story is sort of a 'hot button' issue among those of us interested in this aspect of history.

Some believe "The Buffalo Harvest" is pure fiction and point to certain technical inconsistancies found in the story as proof. Among these is the often-aruged mention of the .45-120 cartridge by Col. Mayers. (The .45-120 wasn't introduced until about 1884. By that time both the buffalo and The Sharps Rifle Company were gone from the scene.)

Defenders of Frank Mayers will point out that he was an old man when he told his story, and that Roth is the one who wrote it. So it is to be expected that a few minor details get twisted around. As for the .45-120, it can be argued that Sharps did anything to please the customer and Mayer's rifle may have been a custom job.

As for the 20 - 30X 'scope, I find it a bit hard to believe. Even these days the use of 'scopes of such magnification is limited to highly specialized varmint, target and sniper rifles. Now think of a such a scope built using 1870's technology. A 3/4" tube, simple uncoated lenses and no nitrogen fill. The image would be too dark and distorted to be useful. Not to mention the limited field of view - all you'd see would be fur! Think of a a long and (comparatively) thin tube housing those delicate, high magnification optics bouncing around on a saddle or in the box of an old hide wagon. I doubt such a 'scope could stand up to the rigors of the buffalo range for very long.

I'm not calling Frank Mayers a liar, mind you. Maybe such scopes did exist and perform well. It's just a bit hard to believe when you think about it.
Jim Watson
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Post by Jim Watson »

According to Ned Roberts' The Breechloading Single Shot Rifle:
"from about 1865 until 1885 the Malcolm telescopes were far superior to any others made in the United States"
and
"The old full-length Malcolm telescopes had a 3/4-inch diameter steel tube with lenses of about 1/2 to 5/8 inch diameter and were made in all powers from 3 to 20 or even higher on special order."
pete
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Post by pete »

Hide hunter I agree with you. A 20 or 30 power scope would be a little excessive for a buffalo. I used to hunt coyotes here on the prairie with a 220 Swift and then a 22-250 with a 6.5-20 Leupold and 10x was good. With the variable of ranges and conditions in hunting a 20x scope would be impractical to say the least. And I think buffs are a tad bigger than coyotes too.
Oh yeah I almost forgot. That was a very articulate and sensitive way of describing the rift between the pro/anti Mayer people. You're making me think there's hope for world peace. (happy emoticon)
Omak Cowboy
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Rich

Post by Omak Cowboy »

Rich, haven't read the Mayer stuff but in my view of humanity I'd say there is more and better hope for Whirlled Peas!
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Maj Bob Lee
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Post by Maj Bob Lee »

On the subject of Mayer and the "45-120" I believe he says in his book that he loaded all his own ammunition, in looking at my copy of the Sellers book on Sharps rifles I noticed in the accessories chapter that he says Sharps made and sold a measure that threw a 120 grain charge. If that is the case then someone must have been buying them and loading 120 grains in some Sharps case. The 45-2 7/8 would be a good candidate. Of course this doesn't really prove that Mayer was right, just something to think about. Also in looking at another BPCR sight yesterday a poster to the sight included a picture of an original box of 45 2 7/8 cartridges that he saw I think at a gun show. The ammo contained a 500 grain PP bullet over 120 grains of powder. The ammo was Winchester with the remark that it was "loaded especially for Sharps rifles". Don't know how much of it was available, but besides hand loads there apparently was some factory 45 27/8 loaded with 120 grain charges. Again I'm not defending Mayer I have read the book and find it entertaining. Whether it's all accurate is a question...well I don't know.
"A miltia when properly formed are in fact the people themselves and include all men capable of bearing arms..To preserve liberty it is essential that the whole body of people always possess arms.." Richard Henry Lee 1788
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Hidehunter
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Post by Hidehunter »

Frank Mayers mentions that he preferred a German made 'scope. Even (especially?) back in those days the Krauts were famous for quality optics. So, in the end, the scope - as well as the .45-120 cartridge - cannot be used to positively prove - or disprove - Col. Mayer's claims. At the very worst Frank Mayers may be 'guilty' of spinning us a great yarn. How many Sharps rifles were built in Farmington, Big Timber and Italy as a result of interest stirred by Col. Mayer's story? Is that a bad thing?

Frank Mayers was hardly alone in getting his calibers a bit mixed up. Robert Loren Chambers was a buffalo hunter operating on the northern range. In 1939 - at age 80 - he wrote his story. In it he mentions shooting deer for camp meat, also antelope for their hides, with a Winchester .30-30. Trouble is this was in 1881, a dozen years before Winchester offered the earliest blackpowder version of that caliber. There is collaberating evidence that Chambers "was there" and "done that."
Omak Cowboy
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age and time

Post by Omak Cowboy »

Well Gent's I dont have much of a dog in this fight, but I am reminded that as we age its sometimes hard to put all the years together in a straight line. Little bits and pieces seem to get mixed up, or maybe misplaced.

Does that make us liers? Naaaa, it's just that the random access memory seems to become a little more random as we grow older

As to exact time and place of calibers and equipment, well maybe yes and maybe no. It seems the Sharps Co of old, as today made a lot of stuff to order and unless they wrote it all down and unless we can find the books it may just be one of life's little mysteries. Chasing it down can be kind of fun, though.

Omak
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carl thomas zmuda
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20x-30x scopes on buffalo rifles

Post by carl thomas zmuda »

Say, maybe there was an error in transribing. Could it be that he meant 2x or 3x?
Ray Newman
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Post by Ray Newman »

Colleagues: I think we are forgetting one major point in this discussion (& as well in other previous discussions) of Meyer’s book—it was co-authored by another person.

Does anyone know how much firearms knowledge the co-author had & how much “poetic license” he took w/ the writing of Meyer’s tales? Do we know if Meyer ever approved the work or was he just paid a sum to tell his tale(s)?

From my on-line research for information on Roth, it seems that Roth’s account(s) of @ least one alleged wild west persona—Frank Hopkins-- has come into question….

http://uwadmnweb.uwyo.edu/News/2003/may/uwnews13.htm

Also from the “Long Riders Guild”

“Famed biographer Charles B. Roth is the man responsible for creating the Frank Hopkins legend. It was Roth's magazine articles in the 1930s which lifted the obscure Hopkins into national prominence with such memorable quotes as, "Living in New York there's a man named
Frank Hopkins, a remarkable horseman, and the last of the greatest endurance riders."

“Roth routinely described Frank to Depression-era Americans as "the world's most expert horseman," "one of America's greatest horsemen," and "thrice winner of international contests to determine the world's finest horsemen."

“We will reveal details about Roth's colourful penmanship later. Now we are going to focus on the myth, versus the reality, of Frank Hopkins' most famous endurance races.”

http://www.thelongridersguild.com/hoax-400.htm

Does anyone else have more information about Charles B. Roth?
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Trigger Dr
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Post by Trigger Dr »

It is entirely possible that Roth had some very good sights on his typewriter or pen as the case may be
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Omak Cowboy
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pies

Post by Omak Cowboy »

oc writes: When the pies are HARD, you can step on them

Well, Doc, I remember from my childhood that when the pies are hard you can THROUGH them. The worlds one, only and original Frisbi!
Omak
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Hidehunter
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Post by Hidehunter »

FWIW, I have a copy of the December, 1934 issue of "The American Rifleman." In this issue is an article written by Frank Mayers titled "Making the Big Bores Shoot." It's an interesting and technically detailed article describing BPCR loading and shooting techniques. In it, Frank speaks a bit about his life on the buffalo range. It's strange to hear about "the old times" in an article that is almost 70 years old itself.

Looking past the actual material being presented in the article, it's interesting to take note of the writing style. The prose(?) of the article is the same shot, sweet and to the point style of "The Buffalo Harvest." While we may argue over some of technicalities mentioned in "The Buffalo Harvest," it's clear that ol' Frank was a well educated man who was sharp as a tack in his old age. If Roth took a few 'liberties' when publishing "The Buffalo Harvest" it isn't obvious by the writing style. Unless, of course, Roth also wrote the magazine article.
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Hunting the North American Bison from Balloons:

Post by TYRVR »

This an excerpt from a suspect treatise on a European hunting foray to Americas plains, it was purportedly written by one of the Montgolfier brothers.

Paris France, 1888.

After a long voyage on a smelly boat, my party arrived in America, we landed in a uncivilized sewer called "New York", if ..... this is the "new" York, I cannot imagine the filth of the "old York". I lost no time in getting our equipment on a smelly train going west. After several weeks, we arrived in a place called Wyoming, it is a native word that I believe means "Land of nothing that smells good". We unpacked our gear and set up a camp that was superiour to every hotel we had stayed in since arriving in this smelly country, A large hairy man who smelled very bad was hired as a scout to find the large herds of smelly bison, he soon came riding back on his smelly horse to inform us the herd was just over the ridge and was quite large. The next morning, I had my baloon prepared and outfitted, as the Sun rose on the horizon I ascended to a distance of 2,000 feet, as we drifted west, a large dark stain on the earth proved to be the bison herd, ai was very excited, the game we had come so far were within my sights, in my Paris work shop I had manufactured a very fine optic instrument thru which I could select a bison, move the crossed hairs onto his back-and then release one of the 100 or so flat irons I had bought in Paris for the purpose of dropping them from great distance on bison, I called my invention "Iron Sights", when one of these irons struck a bison, there was a large thud and a piercing whistle as the air shot out of the bisons nostrils! Sometimes there was also a loud eruption of gas from the back of the bison that caused his stubby tail to stand straight out and flap at the end like a party favor popular with small children. The bison seldom moved from his tracks after being struck by my aerial delivered missiles, My optical device was very accurate, unless the severe cross winds found in Wyoming blew them off course, (I understand some were found as far away as San Francisco).

This is but an excerpt from Mssr. Montgolfier's diary of his trip to the hunting grounds of the great herd, I shall pause here for heretics and scoffers to assail the validity of this documents contents.

Ol'Tye,
Member #3, of the "Brought Enough Gun Club"
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