Trends in BPCR Long Range Shooting

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mdeland
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Re: Trends in BPCR Long Range Shooting

Post by mdeland »

I was and am referring to mini groove grease bullets being used so successfully now , which is one of the main drag reduction characteristics of the design, along with ogive and point shape. One can say oh that looks like the same bullet but I have never seen the entire package any where before and as was said, if it did indeed exist back then, why did it not have the same effect on the records as it does now. Does it not pretty much eat every other GG bullet alive competitively now days ? Are not most of the top shooters using some variant of Theodore's design?
I get it that the nose and Ogive have been used before in PP bullets but I'm talking about the GG money bullet design and it's variants, which is winning a lot of matches currently.
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Don McDowell
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Re: Trends in BPCR Long Range Shooting

Post by Don McDowell »

I think in long range you'll find the large percentage of shooters are running a Money bullet of some flavor, in patched or naked bullets.
AKA Donny Ray Rockslinger :?
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desert deuce
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Re: Trends in BPCR Long Range Shooting

Post by desert deuce »

Has anyone thought that perhaps a select few that were in on the development know the secret and have been sworn to secrecy, even to this day? Hmmmm? :|
Sometimes you get the chicken, and sometimes you get the feathers!
semtav
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Re: Trends in BPCR Long Range Shooting

Post by semtav »

gunlaker wrote:
Before the match I tried wiping with pure water. I do not know how if it would have changed anything for me in Phoenix, but at home it worked just as well as my 10% Ballistol 90% water. I didn't run them over the chronograph to compare however.

There was one clear benefit. The cleaning rod never became too slippery to grip, as has sometimes happened to me with my water/oil mix.

Using water might have exposed a problem with my load. I have been patching my bullets 0.025" short of the end of the shank. those loads shot very excellently here at 200m. When using pure water I found that my bore had a grey lead "wash" on the cleaning patches at the end of the day, but 200m accuracy was not affected. I guess the small amont of Ballistol in my regular wiping fluid prevented the leading. When I tried patching the full length of the bullet I still got a little bit of grey on the patches at the end of the day, indicating that my bullets are probably still bumping up past the end of the patch a bit.

Chris.
I may have had a similar problem Chris. I did get a tiny amount of lead out on the first two patches when cleaning. Plus when I was done there was a little smear of something right on the start of the rifling. A tight patch of turpentine removed it. Didn't get a good test yesterday, because the wind was blowing too hard and the dust made it impossible to see thru the scope when I was trying to shoot and sight by myself. I did find a virtually undamaged bullet that I shot yesterday by the target that showed the rifling was about as perfect as one could ask for.
semtav
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Re: Trends in BPCR Long Range Shooting

Post by semtav »

I measured the rifling and it was just a little bit shorter than my patch, so I should have been good there plus I'm camming my shell in approx 1/8 inch. I've gone about a year with no problems, so I hope it was just the straight water and not something else that popped up. My new high dollar sight malfunctioned on me to boot, but it shouldn't have made the load that erratic as long as I didn't change the sight or looked before moving it.
semtav
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Re: Trends in BPCR Long Range Shooting

Post by semtav »

Woody just brought up something on another thread that may have had something to do with my sudden shooting demise. the broken hammer on the gun causing increased vertical when replaced due to light firing pin strikes.

My gun had just survived two very brutal dust bowl shoots to the tune of needing a complete teardown to clean every moving thing and most things not moving. the one thing I didn't remove was the firing pin. It was very sticky but I lubed it enough that i thought it was functioning ok again. Maybe not !!!!
Kenny Wasserburger
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Re: Trends in BPCR Long Range Shooting

Post by Kenny Wasserburger »

Only one way too tell for sure.............shoot a few bullets into something you can recover them from.

And check to see is the bullet is bumping up above the top of your patch. :shock: with the harder alloys, the bullet should only have rifling just to the top of the patch, this is a subject Dan and I discussed at some length..I had several pictures I sent him from recovered Bullets taken from my 1000 yard berm, and from the mile target that Tony Nielson had found that had been 10 to 15 feet short and had cut furrows in the hard ground up to the target, quite cool. Bullets were remarkably well preserved.

I wish I had done a much better job of preserving our emails....let alone the phone and Raton cabin discussions.
One of the reasons I started this thread in the first place.... :idea: :)
We can ill afford to lose again this information.

Kenny Wasserburger
We'll raise up our Glasses against Evil Forces, Singing, Whiskey for my men, Beer for my horses.

Wyoming Territory Sharps Shooter
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Don McDowell
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Re: Trends in BPCR Long Range Shooting

Post by Don McDowell »

Good point Kenny. There was so much information lost from the original days of cartridge rifle, because notebooks deteriorate, those that survive went to to the trash as disinterested family members went thru the belongings of the deceased .. Look at the number of rifles that have been circulated in open market, and even more sadly look at the number of original Creedmoor etal, medals that can be bought, but no idea of who they went to or for what..
At least as long as these forums and the like are around the information that "we" have rediscovered will be available to those that come later , that might show an interest.
AKA Donny Ray Rockslinger :?
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desert deuce
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Re: Trends in BPCR Long Range Shooting

Post by desert deuce »

There are those that read and are students of history.

There are those that make history and are not students of history.

Then there are those that both read and make history and it is not always fully apparent when in progress and not fully realized until well after the fact how important were their contributions.

Then there are those upon whom all fact and history is lost now and in the future.

It is not unusual to wonder if some history is fact at all as in the present it can be difficult to separate fact from theory.....should we not consider that was also a conundrum in the past?

In Long Range Black Powder Target Shooting to rely on a score at the end of the day exclusively is to ignore the conditions under which that score was fired and that my friends is one of the first flaws of simply recognizing results as they are as useless as theories when met head on by reality.

Ballistics programs for instance are useless when the information they provide prove both ineffective or wrong for in the final analysis the proof is where the bullet lands, not where it should have landed. :roll: :roll:

In the present, which in a moment will be history, the why it landed where it did is inconsequential to an extent because the next bullet will pass through a different set of variables on it's journey through 1,000 yards of micro and macro conditions before impact even though history and the present may be separated only by seconds on the timer.
Sometimes you get the chicken, and sometimes you get the feathers!
Kenny Wasserburger
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Re: Trends in BPCR Long Range Shooting

Post by Kenny Wasserburger »

Zack,

Truer words never spoken there, Edwin Perry's book is almost a time machine back to 1879. He mentions great strides being made in bullet nose shapes, to be shared in his next edition. He no doubt was an admirer of Frank Hyde. DanT often teased me of being a reincarnation of Hyde or at least was channeling Frank whilst I was so doggedly doing my researching on the Hyde method base of patching, after we both started using it on our bullets.

Oh by the way I have visted with my publisher friends in Delhi, and have secured more copies of the 1880 volume, in case ones interested in getting a copy....Pm me please.

Most of us love the history, and the stories behind our BPTR sport.

Kenny Wasserburger
We'll raise up our Glasses against Evil Forces, Singing, Whiskey for my men, Beer for my horses.

Wyoming Territory Sharps Shooter
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desert deuce
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Re: Trends in BPCR Long Range Shooting

Post by desert deuce »

Right on Brother Kenny, and let me add that The World 1000 Inaugural Match information is found on page 64 of Perry's book which not only preserves the announcement but lays down the prizes, classes and general rules for the September 1879 World 1000 Yard Championship at Creedmoor. There are many nuggets throughout his book.

Those that competed in the World 1000 Yard Championship at Ben Avery March 2016, truly made history in our sport much as the 30 Competitors that completed the 1879 World 1000 yard Match there were 31 that completed the 2016 World 1000 yard Match at Ben Avery.

One wonders how those original 30 would have fared shoulder to shoulder with the latter 31 riflemen at Ben Avery
March 18-20, 2016, under the conditions that prevailed on those days....?

I can just hear the voices of the past inquiring about barrel makers, bullet makers, bullet shapes and elevations.
Sometimes you get the chicken, and sometimes you get the feathers!
semtav
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Re: Trends in BPCR Long Range Shooting

Post by semtav »

Kenny Wasserburger wrote:Only one way too tell for sure.............shoot a few bullets into something you can recover them from.

And check to see is the bullet is bumping up above the top of your patch. :shock: with the harder alloys, the bullet should only have rifling just to the top of the patch, this is a subject Dan and I discussed at some length..I had several pictures I sent him from recovered Bullets taken from my 1000 yard berm, and from the mile target that Tony Nielson had found that had been 10 to 15 feet short and had cut furrows in the hard ground up to the target, quite cool. Bullets were remarkably well preserved.

I wish I had done a much better job of preserving our emails....let alone the phone and Raton cabin discussions.
One of the reasons I started this thread in the first place.... :idea: :)
We can ill afford to lose again this information.

Kenny Wasserburger

I did recover one bullet in the soft dirt beside the target that was virtually undamaged. The rifling and base were about as perfect as I could ever hope for. If the erratic behavior persists after I clean the firing pin I ll try to find something soft to shoot in to. The rifling stopped just a tad below where the patch ended so that should be good
bruce m
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Re: Trends in BPCR Long Range Shooting

Post by bruce m »

zack,
good ballistics programmes are not the ogres you seem to suggest.
they can predict wind deflection, b.c., trajectory, and stability factor with great accuracy.
the results you get are as good as the info you feed them.
having done the calculations, you then have to recognize what you fed into the programme when you are on the line to capitalize on it.
you have to load consistent accurate ammo, have consistent and proper barrel condition and hold and squeeze to capitalize on it.
of course you cannot blame a programme for a wind shear that appears when the bullet is at 500 yards. :roll:
science will beat witchcraft when used properly.
keep safe,
bruce.
ventum est amicus meus
semtav
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Re: Trends in BPCR Long Range Shooting

Post by semtav »

semtav wrote:
Altho I had my rounds loaded for todays Long range match. I was pretty sure I wasn't going to be able to attend because of work. At the last minute the situation changed and I could make it. Unfortunately, I had run out of cutting oil to mix with water for my wiping patches, so I just used water alone for my patches. (since someone on this sight swears it is the only thing needed) That was this single best lesson in fouling control I've had in a long time. Not only did I experience the sudden target low impacts like Eric and Chris did, but once I got it back to center, suddenly I would experience target high impacts. Now I'm going to take the rest of my rounds, go back out tomorrow hopefully and see what happens when I go back to my 7-1 mixture. I do know I will never ever ever use a straight water mixture in my fouling control again.
Hard to believe 4 months passed since I shot that rifle. Finally had a chance to shoot that rifle in a match again this weekend. three things I did different, were 1. Used a different jag for wiping 2. switched back to 11-1 oil mix for the patches and 3. got rid of all my old lead I'd been using and started with a fresh mixture. I had been having a hard time getting real good bullets out of my mould for quite a while and couldn't figure out why. I must have gotten something in the mix because once I did this they started casting good bullets again.
I think this was the main problem for my occasional dirt diggers this spring. On the last target yesterday , with 2 shots left, I suddenly had a shot go a target low. when I went to put the case back in the holder, my two shells were still there. I had unconsiously reached up and grabbed one of the 7 shells I had remaining from the spring shoot. My last shot went right back to the middle of the target. Don't know what was in that mix or why it did what it did but is sure resulted in some poor shots. That's my theory and I'm sticking to it. ( at least until the next match)
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Lumpy Grits
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Re: Trends in BPCR Long Range Shooting

Post by Lumpy Grits »

THX for the update.
Do you have a clue as to what may have messed up your other alloy? Do you buy alloy from same source or??
G.
"Hav'n you along, is like loose'n two good men"
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