KHR - My 44-77 is an original RB action with Treebone wood and a Badger barrel. It weighs 11 lbs 14 ozs with sights and is silhouette legal. Dave Crossno did most of the work including the chambering. He had the chamber reamer ground for my reformed Buffalo Arms 348 Win brass and with a tight neck (I neck turn my cases). This chamber and the squaring of the receiver, block, and barrel face has resulted in accuracy beyond my expectations.
Barrel twist is 1-18" which limits me to a maximun bullet length of about 1.4". I can live with that as the two bullets I'm currently working with weigh 507 and 510 grains and are lubed with Mrs. rdnck's Black Magic lube. Charge weight of Goex Ffg (2002 mfg) is 80.0 grains and I use Fed 155M primers. Velocity with this charge weight under the 507 Brooks Creedmoor in 40°-50° weather has been in the 1270 fps range. Best accuracy with Goex Cartridge (also 2002 mfg) was at 79.0 grains and velocity was surprisingly lower at about 1210 fps.
I experimented with metal can Swiss 1½ (lot #1) this past weekend. The only Swiss load that grouped, and it grouped very well, was with 75.5 grains and .070" compression. The ES on this load was only 6.4 fps for 7 shots (I used the first 3 of 10 for foulers). Velocity was somewhere around 1224 fps (I don't have my notes with me) at 30°. A little temperature would go a long way toward raising that velocity. Subsequent increases in charge weight and compression destroyed accuracy, but the velocity with 80.0 of Swiss 1½ was 1330 fps (50+°) with the Brooks 507 Creedmoor.
This cartidge was no harder than my 40-65 or 45-90 to develop accurate loads for. Again, I attribute the accuracy of this 44-77 BN to Dave Crossno's work more than anything else. The biggest issue I have is in learning to shoot a single non-set trigger Roller consistantly. Pull wieght is only 2¼ lbs, but that's considerably more than I'm used to. I normally shoot a Sharps with a double set trigger which I find significantly easier to shoot. I've also had a few mechanical issues with the sights I chose for the rifle, but those are being addressed.
The 44-77 BN is probably not a caliber for a first BPC rifle. If you just want something different and don't mind spending a little extra time in case preparation (and in case handling as case mouth dings are expensive) you will find it responds about like any other BP cartridge. Knowing what I know now I'd like to have a 1-17" twist and a different set of sights, but other than that I wouldn't change a thing. - Nick
Trends in BPCR Long Range Shooting
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Kenny Wasserburger
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By Golly,
Troll I do think your right. For some odd reason I thought I had read at one time that some of the first Creedmoor rifles where in 44-77 then 44-90 BN But I cant not find that reference now. Perhaps they had tested the 44-77 and then went with the 44-90. I know some place I read this reference. It is sure not in Seller's Book thats for sure.
I did find some load data of 85 grs and a special hardened 500 gr bullet.
I also found reference to 45 2-7/8 as a sepecial order chamber on some models. Along with several other cailbers.
In all I guess what I was trying to get at was that bottle necks where first used and soon fell out of favor, the 45-100 2.6 was offered for less then 10 months then the 44-100 2.4 case was the standard afterwords. Some 40-70 Bn were made and of course a 45-90 2-7/8th as the book lists it.
What I was getting at was the trend went from BN to straight cases big then smaller then again at the end of the era some shooters were again going with an even larger case than the 2.6 the 45 2 7/8ths.
Thanks for pointing this out Troll.
Kenny Wasserburger
Troll I do think your right. For some odd reason I thought I had read at one time that some of the first Creedmoor rifles where in 44-77 then 44-90 BN But I cant not find that reference now. Perhaps they had tested the 44-77 and then went with the 44-90. I know some place I read this reference. It is sure not in Seller's Book thats for sure.
I did find some load data of 85 grs and a special hardened 500 gr bullet.
I also found reference to 45 2-7/8 as a sepecial order chamber on some models. Along with several other cailbers.
In all I guess what I was trying to get at was that bottle necks where first used and soon fell out of favor, the 45-100 2.6 was offered for less then 10 months then the 44-100 2.4 case was the standard afterwords. Some 40-70 Bn were made and of course a 45-90 2-7/8th as the book lists it.
What I was getting at was the trend went from BN to straight cases big then smaller then again at the end of the era some shooters were again going with an even larger case than the 2.6 the 45 2 7/8ths.
Thanks for pointing this out Troll.
Kenny Wasserburger
We'll raise up our Glasses against Evil Forces, Singing, Whiskey for my men, Beer for my horses.
Wyoming Territory Sharps Shooter
Wyoming Territory Sharps Shooter
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N2
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Troll - I've spent an interesting evening researching the 1874 Creedmoor cartridge. Sellers does indeed state on page 322 of "Sharps Firearms" (pub 1978) that the first Creedmoor rifle left the factory March 16,1874... and it was a 44/90.
Just to be sure I checked a number of additional sources. In Saterlee's "Fourteen Old Gun Catalogs" (pub 1941) there's a testimonial on page 24 dated Dec 28, 1873 refering to the purchase of a 44-110 caliber Sporting Gun. This would infer the 44-90 was available in 1874, however, Winston O. Smith's list of Sharps's cartridges ("The Sharps Rifle" pub 1943) on page 101 indicates the 44-2 5/8" wasn't manufactured until 1876. Smith does note the original Creedmoor's were chambered in 44 caliber on page 78.
Confused yet? I went to James J. Grants "Single Shot Rifles" (pub 1947). On page 136 in a discussion regarding the Remington Creedmoor rifle he lists the 44 2¼" case not only chambered in Creedmoor rifles, but loaded with 77 and 90 grains of powder. He also mentions the 2 5/8" case (also called the 44-105) as well as a 2 7/16" as being chambered "later". What "later" means is open to interpretation.
OK, so what cartridge were the 1874 Creedmoors chambered for. At this point I'm not really sure. I still have a number of referance books I haven't looked into, but it should be an interesting exercise. - Nick
Just to be sure I checked a number of additional sources. In Saterlee's "Fourteen Old Gun Catalogs" (pub 1941) there's a testimonial on page 24 dated Dec 28, 1873 refering to the purchase of a 44-110 caliber Sporting Gun. This would infer the 44-90 was available in 1874, however, Winston O. Smith's list of Sharps's cartridges ("The Sharps Rifle" pub 1943) on page 101 indicates the 44-2 5/8" wasn't manufactured until 1876. Smith does note the original Creedmoor's were chambered in 44 caliber on page 78.
Confused yet? I went to James J. Grants "Single Shot Rifles" (pub 1947). On page 136 in a discussion regarding the Remington Creedmoor rifle he lists the 44 2¼" case not only chambered in Creedmoor rifles, but loaded with 77 and 90 grains of powder. He also mentions the 2 5/8" case (also called the 44-105) as well as a 2 7/16" as being chambered "later". What "later" means is open to interpretation.
OK, so what cartridge were the 1874 Creedmoors chambered for. At this point I'm not really sure. I still have a number of referance books I haven't looked into, but it should be an interesting exercise. - Nick
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KHR
- Posts: 277
- Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2004 3:16 pm
- Location: Lone Star State, Central TX
N2,
I second mike's observation, this is fascinating. Other than sellers book, and MLV's books, what are the sharps books that one needs in a gun library?
Also do you have to neck turn 44/77 for other chambers, such as shiloh? Do you neck turn because you essentially have a tight match (benchrest like) chamber?
keith
I second mike's observation, this is fascinating. Other than sellers book, and MLV's books, what are the sharps books that one needs in a gun library?
Also do you have to neck turn 44/77 for other chambers, such as shiloh? Do you neck turn because you essentially have a tight match (benchrest like) chamber?
keith
Some originals and some Shilohs.
Molon Labe
Molon Labe
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Timberlake
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dbm
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I have an 1878 sixth edition of Gen. Geo. W. Wingate's "Manual for Rifle Practice". George Wood Wingate, "Manual" appeared in six instalments in the Army and Navy Journal in late 1870 and early 1871 and was later reprinted in a number of editions in book form.
He was Secretary of the NRA and one of the prime movers in the drive to acquire a range. Thanks to his efforts and those of the President, William Church, the New York Legislature of 1872 was induced to appropriate $25,000 for the purchase of a range near New York City, the Association agreeing to raise $5,000 on its part. The acquisition of the land for Creedmoor thus became possible.
Wingate with a few other clear-sighted individuals, organized the "Amateur Rifle Club" of New York City in 1873. The Amateur Rifle Club fired their first match at the Creedmoor Rifle Range on 12 July 1873. It was the Amateur Club that responded to the Irish Challenge in 1874 for the first long range match at Creedmoor, and Wingate was the US team Captain.
Anyway, that's straying from the point a little, but I wanted to explain who Wingate was. Back to his "Manual for Rifle Practice".....
His only observation as to the cartridge is the "the .44 calibre is the only bore used fro long range, what is known as the "special" cartridge <undimensioned drawing included> being manufactured for this purpose."
With regards to powder though there are some further comments included:
"The best shots in Great Britain and Canada insist that no advantage is gained by using a charge of over 90 grains, as that is all the rifle wil burn. Mr Hepburn (who has experimented extensively on the point), and other good shots in the country, are of the same opinion. Yet the tendency is toward heavier charges; and all the American team of 1875 used from 100 grains to 108 grains, and considered that it gave them an advantage, thier bullets being less effected by wind than those of their opponents. In using 100 grains, three points less elevation is required than with a charge of 90 grains. In all cases the charge must not be pressed into the shell so as to crush the powder, as that will impair its strength. If it will not go in by shaking, etc., a longer shell must be used. By using a funnel two feet long, and pouring the powder in very gradually, 100 grains can be introduced into the ordinary shell, without tapping or shaking it, and without packing the powder, and yet leave sufficient space for the bullet."
Sadly he does not say what an "ordinary shell" is!
Bullets he says are best "long, smoth, and oval pointed, composed of one part of tinto twenty parts of lead, weighing about 550 grains.
Apparently in the Sharps rifle a "lubricating disc is placed behind the ball, which it is claimed will dispense with the necessity of cleaning after every shot. Yet the crack shots who use this rifle invariably wipe out their rifles, preferring the certainty which arises from having a perfectly clean barrel."
In the Remington cartridges for their long range rifle "the only lubrication has been by greasing the paper patch, all lubrication not absorbed by the paper being removed, and the barrel being wiped perfectly clean after every shot."
David
He was Secretary of the NRA and one of the prime movers in the drive to acquire a range. Thanks to his efforts and those of the President, William Church, the New York Legislature of 1872 was induced to appropriate $25,000 for the purchase of a range near New York City, the Association agreeing to raise $5,000 on its part. The acquisition of the land for Creedmoor thus became possible.
Wingate with a few other clear-sighted individuals, organized the "Amateur Rifle Club" of New York City in 1873. The Amateur Rifle Club fired their first match at the Creedmoor Rifle Range on 12 July 1873. It was the Amateur Club that responded to the Irish Challenge in 1874 for the first long range match at Creedmoor, and Wingate was the US team Captain.
Anyway, that's straying from the point a little, but I wanted to explain who Wingate was. Back to his "Manual for Rifle Practice".....
His only observation as to the cartridge is the "the .44 calibre is the only bore used fro long range, what is known as the "special" cartridge <undimensioned drawing included> being manufactured for this purpose."
With regards to powder though there are some further comments included:
"The best shots in Great Britain and Canada insist that no advantage is gained by using a charge of over 90 grains, as that is all the rifle wil burn. Mr Hepburn (who has experimented extensively on the point), and other good shots in the country, are of the same opinion. Yet the tendency is toward heavier charges; and all the American team of 1875 used from 100 grains to 108 grains, and considered that it gave them an advantage, thier bullets being less effected by wind than those of their opponents. In using 100 grains, three points less elevation is required than with a charge of 90 grains. In all cases the charge must not be pressed into the shell so as to crush the powder, as that will impair its strength. If it will not go in by shaking, etc., a longer shell must be used. By using a funnel two feet long, and pouring the powder in very gradually, 100 grains can be introduced into the ordinary shell, without tapping or shaking it, and without packing the powder, and yet leave sufficient space for the bullet."
Sadly he does not say what an "ordinary shell" is!
Bullets he says are best "long, smoth, and oval pointed, composed of one part of tinto twenty parts of lead, weighing about 550 grains.
Apparently in the Sharps rifle a "lubricating disc is placed behind the ball, which it is claimed will dispense with the necessity of cleaning after every shot. Yet the crack shots who use this rifle invariably wipe out their rifles, preferring the certainty which arises from having a perfectly clean barrel."
In the Remington cartridges for their long range rifle "the only lubrication has been by greasing the paper patch, all lubrication not absorbed by the paper being removed, and the barrel being wiped perfectly clean after every shot."
David
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N2
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- Location: North Texas
dbm - Thanks for the insight. Frankly I don't know how anyone could manage 108 grains of powder in the 44-2¼" case even with balloon head cases and PP bullets. The grease cookie would utilize at least .125" if not more as would the seated bullet. I'm leaning toward Troll's point of view (2-5/8" case), but the available data is confusing.
KHR - I've listed a number of Sharps references that aren't particularly easy to find. Military Books has them from time to time (http://home.earthlink.net/~militarybooks/). Timberlake mentioned the Rywell book. Saterlee's Fourteen Old Gun Book Catalogs is a compliation of all the known original Sharps catalogs and a few other manufacturers as well. There is also a second Saterlee book called Ten Old Gun Catalogs that has a lot of interesting data as well. James Grant had a whole series of books which cover virtually all of the period single shot rifles including the Sharps. The entire series is well worth the money. Buffalo Arms carries a number of books for these rifles. Check out their catalog or website.
The reason I neck turn my 44-77 cases is the tight chamber. I fire form the cases once without turning, then turn them just enough to remove the high spots and to cut out the doughnut that forms at the neck/body junction. At this point a .446" bullet is a slip fit. The only sizing I do is to bell the case mouth as my Brooks bullets have a .4465" base band. The .445" portion of my Buffalo Arms expander never touches the case neck unless I've dropped a case and dinged the mouth. I've only seen one Shiloh chambered in 44-77 BN (which I very nearly purchased) and it's chamber did not require neck turning.
MikeT. - I've read several sources that list Remington as the developer of the 44-77 BN. It apparently wasn't unusual for one manufacturer to develop a cartridge back then only to have someone else reinvent the same cartridge as something else. Sharps called the 45-70 the 45-75. I guess it was just how you loaded it as their nomenclature called out the caliber, powder charge, and bullet weight. That would make my 44-77 BN a 44-80-507. Interesting way of looking at these cartridges, but it had to be confusing when you purchased Remington ammo for your Sharps rifle or vice versa. - Nick
KHR - I've listed a number of Sharps references that aren't particularly easy to find. Military Books has them from time to time (http://home.earthlink.net/~militarybooks/). Timberlake mentioned the Rywell book. Saterlee's Fourteen Old Gun Book Catalogs is a compliation of all the known original Sharps catalogs and a few other manufacturers as well. There is also a second Saterlee book called Ten Old Gun Catalogs that has a lot of interesting data as well. James Grant had a whole series of books which cover virtually all of the period single shot rifles including the Sharps. The entire series is well worth the money. Buffalo Arms carries a number of books for these rifles. Check out their catalog or website.
The reason I neck turn my 44-77 cases is the tight chamber. I fire form the cases once without turning, then turn them just enough to remove the high spots and to cut out the doughnut that forms at the neck/body junction. At this point a .446" bullet is a slip fit. The only sizing I do is to bell the case mouth as my Brooks bullets have a .4465" base band. The .445" portion of my Buffalo Arms expander never touches the case neck unless I've dropped a case and dinged the mouth. I've only seen one Shiloh chambered in 44-77 BN (which I very nearly purchased) and it's chamber did not require neck turning.
MikeT. - I've read several sources that list Remington as the developer of the 44-77 BN. It apparently wasn't unusual for one manufacturer to develop a cartridge back then only to have someone else reinvent the same cartridge as something else. Sharps called the 45-70 the 45-75. I guess it was just how you loaded it as their nomenclature called out the caliber, powder charge, and bullet weight. That would make my 44-77 BN a 44-80-507. Interesting way of looking at these cartridges, but it had to be confusing when you purchased Remington ammo for your Sharps rifle or vice versa. - Nick
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dbm
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Accoring to part 2 of D.W. Bailey's article "The Sharps in England" (published in Vol.2 No.7, 1994, of the Journal of the Historical Breechloading Smallarms Association) the well known British long range marksman purchased a No. 1 Creedmoor Rifle, serial 154200, on 6 November 1874.
DWB says it had "a 32-inch tapered octagonla barrel in .44/90 2 5/8" bottleneck calibre, firing a 520-grain paper patched bullet. (This cartridge was later loaded with 105 grains of powder for long-range target shooting.)"
Sir Henry purchased a second (sporting) Sharps in January 1876, and a further sporting rifle in January 1877. The later was accoridng to DWB "in calibre .44/90 2 5/8" - the standard long-range cartridge which was shortly to be replaced by the straight-case .45 calibre 2.6" cartridge."
There is reference to other Sharp's purchased but the above are ther only ones where long raneg cartridges are discussed.
One further point of possible interest. In 1877 a Great Britain team was defeated by an American team at Creedmoor. The GB team adjutant, Lt. Colonel Peel, wrote a confidential report on the match for the NRA(GB). In it he refers to the American rifles, cleaninga and loading. Some extracts follow:
"The Americans state that with the breech-loader they can use a heavier charge of gunpowder than can be done with the muzzle-loader.
"They also lay great stress on the powder burning slower than ours.
"They claim that this means they obtain a lower trajectory, and that in other respects, thier bullets are less effected by external influences.
"In connection with this subject, I am assured by a member of the American Team that visited Dollymount and Wimbledon in 1875 - an exceptionally wet year - that they found it necessary to make little or no change in the elevation of their rifles from what they used at home - not more than what one day's practice sufficed to rectify.
"This was certainly not the case with our rifles at Creedmoor.
"The heavy charge necessitates 'cleaning out' after every round, but they
claim that the weapons they use, being in itself a practical one, and
suitable for military or sporting purposes, they may consider themselves
entitled, for match purposes, to get the best shooting out of it they can.
"The 'cleaning out' varies according to fancy, but the method most frequently adopted consists of four distinct processes:-
1st A water brush and water are used.
2nd A dry rag, or piece of lint.
3rd On oiled rag.
4th A piece of was leather.
"They load their cartridge on the ground - inserting the bullet, which has a
lubricated paper wrapper, but no wad, very slightly (1/16 inch only) into
the 'shell.'
"Old shells are considered the best until they get out of shape.
"Some men prefer, for match purposes, those that have been used twice,
others thrice; and some, I understand, use the same shell over and over
again."
David
www.researchpress.co.uk - www.lrml.org - www.mlagb.com
DWB says it had "a 32-inch tapered octagonla barrel in .44/90 2 5/8" bottleneck calibre, firing a 520-grain paper patched bullet. (This cartridge was later loaded with 105 grains of powder for long-range target shooting.)"
Sir Henry purchased a second (sporting) Sharps in January 1876, and a further sporting rifle in January 1877. The later was accoridng to DWB "in calibre .44/90 2 5/8" - the standard long-range cartridge which was shortly to be replaced by the straight-case .45 calibre 2.6" cartridge."
There is reference to other Sharp's purchased but the above are ther only ones where long raneg cartridges are discussed.
One further point of possible interest. In 1877 a Great Britain team was defeated by an American team at Creedmoor. The GB team adjutant, Lt. Colonel Peel, wrote a confidential report on the match for the NRA(GB). In it he refers to the American rifles, cleaninga and loading. Some extracts follow:
"The Americans state that with the breech-loader they can use a heavier charge of gunpowder than can be done with the muzzle-loader.
"They also lay great stress on the powder burning slower than ours.
"They claim that this means they obtain a lower trajectory, and that in other respects, thier bullets are less effected by external influences.
"In connection with this subject, I am assured by a member of the American Team that visited Dollymount and Wimbledon in 1875 - an exceptionally wet year - that they found it necessary to make little or no change in the elevation of their rifles from what they used at home - not more than what one day's practice sufficed to rectify.
"This was certainly not the case with our rifles at Creedmoor.
"The heavy charge necessitates 'cleaning out' after every round, but they
claim that the weapons they use, being in itself a practical one, and
suitable for military or sporting purposes, they may consider themselves
entitled, for match purposes, to get the best shooting out of it they can.
"The 'cleaning out' varies according to fancy, but the method most frequently adopted consists of four distinct processes:-
1st A water brush and water are used.
2nd A dry rag, or piece of lint.
3rd On oiled rag.
4th A piece of was leather.
"They load their cartridge on the ground - inserting the bullet, which has a
lubricated paper wrapper, but no wad, very slightly (1/16 inch only) into
the 'shell.'
"Old shells are considered the best until they get out of shape.
"Some men prefer, for match purposes, those that have been used twice,
others thrice; and some, I understand, use the same shell over and over
again."
David
www.researchpress.co.uk - www.lrml.org - www.mlagb.com
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dbm
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Just to add a little more to the debate....
Been looking through "Major Ned Roberts and The Schuetzen Rifle". In it he describes how both Sharps and Remington rose to the occasion of the first long range match in 1874 and manufactured rifles.
Sharps
Early in the spring of 1874 the Sharps Rifle Company brought out the Model 1874 Creedmoor long range rifle with a thirty two inch barrel, chambered for a .44 calibre Berdan-primed, bottle-neck cartridge loaded with 75 grains of Fg black powder and a 500 grain paper patched bullet.
Remington
Remington followed with their rolling block Creedmoor long range rifles chambered for a similar .44 calibre cartridge but loaded with 77 grains of Fg black powder.
By the time of the 1876 Centennial Match, Roberts says:
"Sharps, Remington, Maynard and Ballard had by then brought out specially selected long range rifles using the .44/90/500 calibre bottle- necked and the .45/100/500 Sharps straight cartridges, all loaded with the Berdan primer - then the only type we had - and paper patched bullets that were swaged from cold lead and heavy machines."
He also says that Colonel Bodine's cartridge was "loaded with 100 grains of black powder and a 500 grain bullet."
Gerald Kelver in his "Schuetzen Rifles - History and Loadings" says:
"Both Remington and Sharps made good on their promises and the rifles were delivered. The calibre of the guns was a .44 calibre, carrying 550 grain bullets, paper patched, and loaded with 75-90 grains of blackpowder."
75-90 grains! - maybe he was as confused as me ... ... or just doesn't want to write he's not sure.
Later comments on Remington:
"The Creedmoor Rifles were delivered in March 1874, and the Amateur Rifle Club members began their practice. The Creedmoor Rifle was manufactured from 1873-1890. It was chambered for the .44/90/500 B.N., the .44/100/500 B.N., and the .44/105/500 B.N."
So, I am still confused! Were the very first 'Creedmoor' rifles in .44/77 and then fairly soon changed to .44/90? Their appear to be a number of conflicting sources and I am running out of books to look in now here in the UK.
David
Been looking through "Major Ned Roberts and The Schuetzen Rifle". In it he describes how both Sharps and Remington rose to the occasion of the first long range match in 1874 and manufactured rifles.
Sharps
Early in the spring of 1874 the Sharps Rifle Company brought out the Model 1874 Creedmoor long range rifle with a thirty two inch barrel, chambered for a .44 calibre Berdan-primed, bottle-neck cartridge loaded with 75 grains of Fg black powder and a 500 grain paper patched bullet.
Remington
Remington followed with their rolling block Creedmoor long range rifles chambered for a similar .44 calibre cartridge but loaded with 77 grains of Fg black powder.
By the time of the 1876 Centennial Match, Roberts says:
"Sharps, Remington, Maynard and Ballard had by then brought out specially selected long range rifles using the .44/90/500 calibre bottle- necked and the .45/100/500 Sharps straight cartridges, all loaded with the Berdan primer - then the only type we had - and paper patched bullets that were swaged from cold lead and heavy machines."
He also says that Colonel Bodine's cartridge was "loaded with 100 grains of black powder and a 500 grain bullet."
Gerald Kelver in his "Schuetzen Rifles - History and Loadings" says:
"Both Remington and Sharps made good on their promises and the rifles were delivered. The calibre of the guns was a .44 calibre, carrying 550 grain bullets, paper patched, and loaded with 75-90 grains of blackpowder."
75-90 grains! - maybe he was as confused as me ... ... or just doesn't want to write he's not sure.
Later comments on Remington:
"The Creedmoor Rifles were delivered in March 1874, and the Amateur Rifle Club members began their practice. The Creedmoor Rifle was manufactured from 1873-1890. It was chambered for the .44/90/500 B.N., the .44/100/500 B.N., and the .44/105/500 B.N."
So, I am still confused! Were the very first 'Creedmoor' rifles in .44/77 and then fairly soon changed to .44/90? Their appear to be a number of conflicting sources and I am running out of books to look in now here in the UK.
David