Trends in BPCR Long Range Shooting

[Texas Shooter]

DBM and Mike T:

Thanks for sharing the knowledge and the encouragement. I am hoping that with all the people on this forum, there will be enough pieces of the puzzle to start resolving this mystery.

I am hoping to add to the knowledge base we are working with, this weekend.

Texas Shooter
Ty O'Neal

[N2]

Kenny - The Roberts book does clearly define on page 11 the final caliber of the Remington Creedmoor's as a 44-90 Rem Special (?) with a 520 or 550 grain PP bullet. The rifles were originally chambered in 44-77-405 (2¼" BN case), but L.L. Hepburn changed the design in order to shoot heavier bullets for less wind deflection. Which 44-90 case that was is questionable as there is more than one 44-90 and the "Special" designation may actually refer to a straight walled case, at least for the Remingtons. The more I read the less I know for sure. Roberts also references the 44-77 BN as continuing in the Rem Mid-Range rifle (pg 14). Hmmm. I guess I'll have to put my 44-77 BN (44-80-507) on paper at 800, 900, and 1000 yards just to see for myself if it's a long range cartridge or not. I'm having to much fun with mine not to. - Nick

[N2]

Kenny - Take a look at page 128 of James J. Grant's Single Shot Rifles. He has a picture of the 44-77 BN next to a BN 44-90-520 Rem Special Match (2 7/16" case), a 44-105-520 Rem and Sharps Special BN (2 5/8" case), and a 44-100-520 Rem Creedmoor 2 6/10" straight walled case. He also mentions a Hepburn Creedmoor in 44-2.4" using 90 -100 grains of powder made from the Sharps 45-2.4" on page 121. A wildcat possibly? Interesting stuff. It didn't provide an answer as to which 44-90 the Remingtons were chambered in and in looking at the chapter on Sharps I picked up this little tidbit on page 169 regarding the Creedmoor Sharps, "The caliber used in the Creedmoor Sharps seem to have been first the 44-77-2¼" case necked. Later this case was loaded with 90 grains of powder, and also about this time the 2 5/8" bottlenecked 44/90 case was uses. The powder charges were increased to 100 and also to 105 grains in this same 2 5/8" case, to give more push to the heavier paper-patch bullets being used at the long ranges. A few of these side-hammer Sharps Creedmoors are also found chambered for the special Remington 44-2 7/16" bottlenecked case laoded with 90 grains of powder." He has pictures of the Sharps 44 caliber loaded rounds on page 180. Very interesting stuff. Maybe that Shiloh Borchardt I'm on the list for will be chambered in one of these 44 caliber rounds. - Nick

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Tye, Nick,

I have been away for a day or so and WOW! Keep at it Tye! I will look in my Grant books also Nick. This seems to just Muddy the waters even more so does it not? with the 44-77 issue.

Tye, I might just give you a call and see what you have learned on the Garrish and Hyde stuff. I had not even thought of the ASSRA (which I am a member off) seems like I get CRS when it comes to the archives that this group has.

I saw some of this yesterday am just as I was heading out the door for work. I then got home late and headed off to the ranch to vist the folks and pick up a case of powder that was shipped there for me.

Keep at this guys it every bit interesting and was just what I had hoped this thread would provoke a good discourse.

David, Seems that Garrish had a bad time in England but we all can have a bad day or days? Some posts where made to the ill health he was having after crossing the Irish sea. As to his abilitys? well if he made the team to begin with I am sure he could of done that world record score.

I seem to Recall a member of the english team doing somthing like 19 bulls in a row at the Sharps factory range after one of the first matches? This was at 1000 yards.

Todays cartridge rifles are pretty impressive with BP loads. In a relaxed practice atmosphere its much easier to do. I once did 13 bulls out of 18 shots at 1000 yards on my own range on my Steel Creedmoor targets. Had begain the session teaching my daughter how to read mirage and the wind. Some of our hunters that were visting (6 of them) stopped to watch. They were astounded at the accuracy of a Sharps with Bp loads at that kind of range.

Tye I will give you a call.

Kenny Wasserburger

[Texas Shooter]

Kenny:

Thanks for the encouragement.

I think you probably have as much or more knowledge as anyone in this group, that being said, anything bits that you can think of, please feel free to write them down.

Having it in text is real easy to lift correctly and it stays accurate. I have an appointment to talk to Mr. Summa tomorrow.

If possible, let's talk tomorrow after I have spoken with him. If you have some questions you want me to cover when I speak with, post them here and I'll have them for the visit.

I'm looking forward to see what kind of light can be shed.

Take Care,

Ty O'Neal
Texas Shooter

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Nick,

I just looked into Grant's book and page 169 as you mentioned. Grants mentions that he has seen several Creedmoor Borchardts also in 45-110 aka the 2 7/8ths case. Wonder if these might of been a couple of the 13 Hyde had built?

I hope Tye has luck Tommrow with finding out more on Garrish's rifle.

Kenny

[MLV]

Just for information. I've loaded for and shot two original Remington Creedmoors. One was a .44-77 and the other was the .44-90 with the 2 7/16 inch case. I can't afford to own such guns, but Hank Williams Jr. came to visit and brought them. Then he left them with me for a while to work up loads for. His gunsmith chamber casted them, so we knew what cartridges they were made for. Both shot very good once I figured them out.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Mike,

Grant's book does mention that first Creedmoors where in 44-77 case length but as to the charge???????????

That said I have to agree that Grant's book and Robert's books are were I got the idea that the 44-77 was the first Creedmoor Calibers.

Thanks for the bit of info Mike it just makes it all the more interesting.

Kenny Wasserburger

[RichBratlee]

WOW!!--This is really a lot of cool and intreresting info--I love it, the history behind it all is awesome--but I have just one question in reference to the archives---has anyone talked to Remington and asked them if they still have factory records and/or drawings?--Just a thought and I am sure that the authors you are researching have done so but,,, and No, I am not trying to be a smart alec , keep up the research cuz I am sure learning alot--Thanks all!

Rich

[dbm]

Kenny wrote "David, Seems that Garrish had a bad time in England but we all can have a bad day or days?Some posts where made to the ill health he was having after crossing the Irish sea. As to his abilitys? well if he made the team to begin with I am sure he could of done that world record score."

My remarks about Gerrish were not intended to be disparaging, merely adding information I had as to the Wimbledon match. Anyone who has been selected to represent their nation must have reached a high standard of marksmanship. I don't know that things were all that bad for Gerrish as he appears to have done well in some individual matches. I have not had opportunity to look at all Wimbledon scores for the year yet. Anyway, as you'll read below I have found out some more general information about the 1880 US tour.

On 13 April 1880 the National Rifle Association accepted the challenge of the Irish Rifle Association to shoot a match at Dollymount in June. After three days shooting in May the membership of the team was selected, although shooting conditions were apparently unfavourable making high scoring difficult. The team sailed on the City of Brussels from New York on 3 June. Not long from the acceptance of the match proposal to finding a team then!

After training in Ireland Colonel Bodine selected Rathbone, Farrow, Brown, Clark, Scott and Fisher for the team of six to compete against Irelands six of: Fenton, Young, Joynt, J.Rigby, W.Rigby and Milner. I have not yet been able to find a full list of the US 'squad'. Rathbone and others were reportedly 'recovering' from the effects of the voyage. In final training on Saturday 26 June the US team scored 1,273 and Ireland scored 1,245.

The match took place on Tuesday 29 June. Frustratingly I am finding conflicting final scores for the match, but understand the Americans won by 12 points. Fenton shot 15 bull's at 800yds, then Scott and Milner followed suit. Clark and Rathbone made full scores at 900yds, and Scott was top scorer on 74x75 at 1000yds.

Farrow used a Ballard rifle, Scott a Remington and the other Americans, Sharps' rifles. All the Irish used Rigby breech loaders, except Young who used a Farquarson Metford.

The following Americans agreed to act with Frank Hyde in the match to come off at Wimbledon: Brown, Clarke, Dudley, Farrow, Gerrish, Jackson, Laird, Rockwell and Scott. The American's apparently quit the camp at Wimbledon, reportedly "dreading the effect of the damp and uncertian climate upon thier unaccustomed frames". In the Any Rifle Association Cup match, Brown won it scoring 50 and 49, with Gerrish close behind scoring 49 and 48. Apparently in the Elcho Shield match, Scott assisted the Irish team as coach. Final scores in the 'International Match' were:

UK 800yds 580 - 900yds 559 - 1000yds 508 - TOTAL 1647
USA 800yds 544 - 900yds 515 - 1000yds 509 - TOTAL 1568

Due to some dispute(?) Farrow was dropped from the US Team and Rockwell was brought in at the last minute - literally the night before the event! He did not shoot well, not having had opportunity to establish sight elevations. In the closing speeches after the match Frank Hyde is reported to have said that it was a grand victory for the Americans, for it had taught the English team to disard the old muzzle loader. The Americans had also taught them to shoot as a team, and not on their individual merits. Farrows's presence, he said, might have altered the result, but a coward is better away from any kind of fight!


Anyway, that is perhaps all incidental to the 'meat' of the original point about Gerrish, but I hope it is of interest. I have managed to find the following information out about Gerrish at Walnut Hill on 25 September 1880, as reported in Forest and Stream.

Gerrish used a Model 1878 Sharps Borchardt with a bit of pitting ahead of the chamber to achieve his remarkable score. It was chambered for a 2.4 inch shell (standard Borchardt cartridge) and was loaded with 105 grains of No.5 Creedmoor powder, made by Laflin and Rand. He used older used cartridge shells out to 800 yards as well as part way through 900 yards, and new unused shells at 1000 yards. These he had loaded on May 13th 1880 from different kegs of of No 5, bought at different times, without noticeable differences in accuracy. He topped off the shells with a wad of 1/11 in thickness and set a 550 grain Winchester bullet on top about 1/10 of an inch into the cartridge. He was awarded $150 in gold by the Sharps Rifle Comapany, besting the 221 score achieved by J S Sumner in the1878 International Match at Creedmoor. Sumner was also awarded a prize by the Sharps Rifle Company for his record at that time.

My correspondnet said the standard Sharps Borchardt had a 34 inch barrel. Mr. Hydes guns were typically all 36 inches in barrel length.

Apparently there is a picture of a keg of Laflin and Rand Creedmoor No.6 in Ted Bayck's book:Gunpowder Cans and Kegs. Gerrish used No.5 so it appears to have come in different grain sizes.


Kenny also wrote - "I seem to Recall a member of the english team doing somthing like 19 bulls in a row at the Sharps factory range after one of the first matches? This was at 1000 yards."

Don't know about that, but Sir Henry Halford shot a score of 49x50 at 800yds on 26 December 1874 with a Sharps Creedmoor Rifle. He sent a target diagram to Sharps who used it in their 1875 catalogue.


David

[RMulhern]

Kenny:

I've never fired in a BPCR LR event....but I shoot a lot of LR here on my home range....just for my own satisfaction. Having shot many years in LR Palma matches using SP and .308 caliber....I know for a fact that.....based upon my experience here on my range.....shooting a good score with these BIG CARTRIDGES....is going to hinge upon being able to SOLVE elevation problems FIRST.....which means HIGHLY CONSISTENT LOAD DEVELOPMENT! And...I've got my own opinions about just how great this will ever be....as long as cast bullets are being utilized. I've been casting for quite a while...more years than I like to recall but basically only quite a lot recently since I discovered this great game. I feel that I can "pour" as good a bullet as any man.....but....no matter how consistent one becomes with the ladle.....there is ALWAYS the "booger bear" of a VOID being in place inside the bullet you're going to use in a match and that...can lead to a TOTAL MISS no matter how good your hold is or...how well the load has been put together! So...at best....it's a crap shoot possibly as to who comes out #1! And...I'll agree with Vbull 100% on the wind doping statement he made because unless one just has SHL....being able to dope the conditions consistently will determine who the match winner will be! But...in addition to the wind problem....I maintain that good and consistent scores at 1000 yds. CANNOT BE FIRED unless consistent elevation can be held. It's difficult enough at best to keep up with the wind.....much less having to fight high and low shots...which may not even make the target frame! I've broken shots that I know....were great holds with good follow-through here on my range at 800 yards...and have had the bullet hit 24" below the target ....IN THE DIRT! This with bullets I know that had been weighed to within 0.2 grain! Go figure! And this with a rifle (.45/90 w/550 PJ Creedmoor) that I know consistently shoots good at this distance. And the next shots may go right into a decent group on the target! One thing I can say about this game is that.....if you're an old hand at shooting SP and the standard old game of Palma...whereby you're accustomed to seeing shots come up on the target on your call.....you'd better come up with a different "mindset" if you expect this when getting into LR BPCR!

[Smokin]

Sharpsman,

Just hang in there and soon you will be firing those championship targets along with the rest of us. Why just last year I was shooting away at 900 and 1000 yards and learned that I was starting a string of a "clean target" I was overjoyed until I found out the pit crew was chiding me for my "really clean" target -- no holes in the paper. Yup, this can be frustrating.

Later this year will be completely different when the new Shiloh finds its way home. Oh yes, nary another target missed. Nary another threat muttered under the breath, promising to turn the mechanical devil into a wood hafted tomato stake. Clean Target City here we come! Good luck, Smokin

[RMulhern]

Smokin

Ah hear ya...LOUD AND CLEAR!

What I think you're a sayin to me is....."ya really don't think that A MAN OF THE CLOTH.....could be a LR BPCR competitor!!

[MLV]

Someone above mentioned asking Remington something about their Long Range rifles. Back in the early 1990s I had dinner at a SHOT Show with a group of Remington officials, and during dinner I suggested they bring back the Rolling Block. Most of them had blank looks on their faces and finally one of them said, "What's a Rolling Block?".

They're probably a bit better now, but if any of you have had a look at what they're putting out in the form of a Rolling Block you will understand they still don't know much about them.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Rick,

With guys shooting good scores in BPCR LR on a regular basis and not having the elevation problem you mention. Tells me one thing you still dont know how to load good BP ammo for LR. I used to have Elevation problems at these ranges also.

It boils down to a couple of things, BULLET, LOAD, And Velocity. Along with learning what these conditions do to the above said components. One of the biggest things if your not on call and not holding elevation is this> are you over 1300 fps? If not then thats part of the problem. Again casting the very best bullet makes all the difference in the world. I use some very serrious methods to inspect my bullets anymore. Learning that there is a elevation component to your windage is just experiance. Try shooting on a windy day. (we have them here alot in WY)

I have also narrowed down my choice in bullet moulds, Paul Jones all the way with a few Steve Brooks moulds also.

The last killer on Elevation problems is NECK TENNSION! If a bullet >feels< Different when seating it it will ACT different at those ranges and RUN OUT is also a biggie.

What has really tightened my groups was a few things:

#1 Annealing the necks

#2 using a Excellent Quality of Powder that is tailor made for the 45-110 Fg as long as its Goex or Swiss you will have it made, the choice is up to you.

#3 A Paul Jones mould and casting the very best bullet I can and I am
serrioius about that!

#4 a Top Quality Inline seating die made just for the 45-110 and the 45-100.


My LR shooting Pard Jimbo Terry just bought a NEW Shiloh off the Rack at Big Timber in a 45-110 LR Express. A very close copy of my very own rifle.

Using Fg powder (swiss) and similar bullets he called last night and was just having the time of his life at the range Friday morning. Very accurate.


This post is not about a powder war its what makes a 45-110 shoot at 1000 yards.

Rick I am in no way trying to disparage your LR Palma experiances. I shot High power for over 10 years and not nearly as well as you did.

But BP loading and Smokless loading are two way different cats! They both use a reloading press and thats about where the two end in similarity.


My max velocity spread is about 11 fps and SD's at 3 or a touch less at times. And my bullets look like machined lead.

Keep at it only took me about 8 years to go though all the stuff that would work and the stuff that dont in a 45-110.

One thing about it new 45-110 shooters have a much shorter learning curve today then they did in 1994 when I took delivery of my rifle. And I am very glad that I can help with that.

Kenny Wasserburger