Trends in BPCR Long Range Shooting

[Texas Shooter]

To All:

I spoke with Robert Summa this morning at his house. (He had left the Mass Gun Assoc.earlier than expected) He indicated to me that several of the people in his club were anxious to find the in formation regarding Garrish. I was told many of them will be together tomorrow evening for a board meeting.

Based on some of the post this morning, has the question about Garrish and the rifle and load he shot for the championship been answered sufficiently?

I still have a question if this was one of the original 13 Borchardts Frank Hyde had ordered (And then re-chambered) or if this was a different rifle altogether.

Further, from the sound of the article, we would be lead to believe that his world record score was essentually a fluke. Other than his skill as a marksman, it sounds like his score was based on luck! I personally believe that if this was the "official" interview, that he fed the interviewer a big load of hot steaming B.S., so his real shooting secrets would not be revealed to his competition.

Any thoughts on this?

Here are some of the questions I was going to investigate.

Please feel free to correct, modify or add to this list.

Is this already answered to everyones satisfaction?
1) "On Sept 25, 1880 William Gerrish fired a total score of 224/225 at a long range match at the Massachusetts Rifle Club." (He was also one of the founders of the Mass. rifle club in 1875)

What type of rifle was he shooting? (Borchardt?) What was the caliber and load information?

2) Can I get copies of the Creedmoor match information in and around 1880?

3) How fequently was the 44-77 and the 44-90 used in competition?

4) Did they use Wildcat rounds for competition? If so, what were they?

5) Is there any documentation of the specifics of there shooting techniques or equipment?

6) We are trying to accurately recreate the technology used in and around the 1880's initially, then we would like to move forward with it. Any suggestions?

7) It seems that the early shooters were more proficient with this technology than we are, why is this?

The Sharps rifle maintained its reputation as THE Long-Range rifle as late as 1900 when William DeV. Foulke won the NRA 1000 yard match with his 1878 LR Sharps. This was at Sea Girt NJ.

What was the round used and specifics?

I look forward to hearing from all of you. Sorry I didn't have more revealing infomation to share this morning.

Regards,

Ty O'Neal
Texas Shooter

[Kenny Wasserburger]

David,

In 1877 Sgt Gilder of the English Team shot 16 consective bulls at 1000 yards at the Sharps factory after the Creedmoor match. The news acounts of the day say that he carried the rifle home with him to England. This was in the New York Herald Sept 16, 1877.

As for the 1880 match in Dollymount I have a source that lists the English Team's score of 1280 and the American team of 1292. It is most certain that the English were there as thats when Sir Henry offered the challenge to Hyde. Your sources say no English Team shot?

I have another book, English of course, its Called Sharpshooting for Sport and War by Greener.

Excellent book but it sort of leads one to believe that the English Domantated the LR of the Creedmoor era. It talks quite planly that the Americans where not much of LR Shots. Greener must of forget the first 6 years of Creedmoor Sort of reversionist History? This book was wrote in 1900 or so and he makes mention of the mid to late 1880's and 90. Where LR was in a massive decline in this country.

Some of your country men were more, objective perhaps?

In the London Sporting Gazette Sept 1877 and I quote:


(Neverless the fact remains that the Americans with only 4 years of experience in Long Range shooting, are able to beat us in both in rifles and marksmen, though we have 15 years of experienc.)

I have a pretty extensive library

Grants book mentions his inspecting several Creedmoor models in 45 2 7/8ths Sharps also, so we know that they still exist. So perhaps your 1994 English article is less then accurate? I would love to know his sources. Sellers book shows a picture of Hyde's Personal Borchardt in 45-110 with the 36 inch tube as you mentioned.

Kenny Wasserburger

Be that it may right or wrong. In Sept 2003 a 45-110 Sharps turned in master class scores in A NRA Reigional and was Match winner In expert Class the first day.

[RMulhern]

Kenny

<<Rick I am in no way trying to disparage your LR Palma experiances.>>

Didn't take it that way! Ya ain't dealin with a "kid" here; I don't carry my feelings on the cuff of my sleeve! Yep! Inconsistent neck tension can be a killer and I prep my brass to use only 0.002" tension. And...all the brass has been annealed!

Best I've been able to get MV out of the .45/90 with a PJ Creedmoor of 550 grs. is 1263 fps! But...I get SDs of 4! That's using Goex 2F with a F215 primer.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Tye,

I can answer the Foulke question his 1878 Borchardt LR Model was loaded With the standard load of 100 grs of FG BP and a 550 grain bullet. Most likely was a 2.4 case and the Postell Sharps LR PP Bullet.

Kenny Wasserburger

[Kenny Wasserburger]

[quote="Sharpsman"]

Best I've been able to get MV out of the .45/90 with a PJ Creedmoor of 550 grs. is 1263 fps! But...I get SDs of 4! That's using Goex 2F with a F215 primer.

Ah Rick and there perhaps lies the rub? What is your max velocity spread?

I personaly use WLR or CCI benchrest primers anymore With SD's of 3 or less its working.

Perhaps you need to chamber that thing out to a 45-110?

Kenny Wasserburger

[dbm]

Kenny wrote - "As for the 1880 match in Dollymount I have a source that lists the English Team's score of 1280 and the American team of 1292. It is most certain that the English were there as thats when Sir Henry offered the challenge to Hyde. Your sources say no English Team shot?"


I have never found any such reference of an English team at the event. A report from Dublin, dated 29 June says: "the Irish team will fire on targets numbered one and two in squads, thus: John Rigby, William Rigby and Milner on target number one, and Fenton, Joynt and Young on target number two. The Americans will fire on targets number five and six, thus: Rathbone, Farrow and Brown on number five, and Clarke, Scott and Fisher on number six."

The 12 points score difference you note above appears to be the Irish/US scores.

Interesting... Sadly in the NRA history by Humphry and Fremantle their is no explanation as to how the match came about.

David

[Harlan Sage]

Sharpsman,
My 45-90 Ballard #7 LR is getting 1344 MV with starline brass, PJones 540 creedmoore, F215 primers, Swiss 1.5 f 83 grs compressed .140". This is the load I shot the Creedmoore match at Raton last Aug. and it shot very well and the starline brass was new (unfired) and annealed.

Harlan

[Kenny Wasserburger]

David,

This is odd, the British NRA not mentioning the details of the match. It is known that Sir Henry was there as the information said that having measured the American team and their spirit of cooperation that Halford wanted to shoot against them on a one to one basis, thus the challenge was issued to Frank Hyde. Sir Henry often stated that the Americans worked much better as a team then the British. This is mentioned in not only Seller's book but in Rywell's also.

I did a bit more research this afternoon, I am recovering from a bad case of the flu last night, In another good book put out by the NRA in 1967 is called Americans and Their guns. Its a History of the American NRA and its makes a good bit of mention of the 1880 match as a invite from the Irish and it appears that the Irish and American Team were the only competitors also. So it looks like to me that Sellers is incorrect in his assement of the 1880 match it was fired against The Irish only. And your assement of the match is correct also. This nice old book is an official Record of The NRA so I am more inclined to think its correct. I bought it at a gun show about 8 years ago for $10. And is where I got the information to Build my Traditional Creedmoor Targets.

It also mentions that the American Victory of 1877 was so devastating that no Foreign team anwsered the challenge for the 1878 match. It appers that Lenox Peel the adjutant of the British team made a long and detailed report after the US Win in 1877, that reconmended adopting much of the American shooting methods and range procedure, much of which originated with Gen Wingate of the USA.

And the British press made quite a deal of the win, of this side match. The fact that Hyde made this aggrement with Sir Henry and was non-sanctioned by the NRA sort of makes it a hollow victory for the British at least in my opinion.


David thanks for your continued Sharing of your information from the other side of the pond!

However we still need to find out what Garrish was using and what chamber length was it for this world record. We know it was a borchardt but What chamber lenght?

Kenny Wasserburger

[dbm]

> "Americans and Their guns"

I have this book. The definitive book in so far as the first Creedmoor match (1874) is that written by the Irish team captain, A.B.Leech "Irish Riflemen in America". It includes some nice colour illustration of medals. No technical details though.

> "It appers that Lenox Peel the adjutant of the British team made a long and detailed report after the US Win in 1877"

Yes, I have a copy. Some parts of it are quoted in page 2 of this discussion. The lack of 'team' shooting by the Brits was criticised and he also siad to stop shooting with the muzzle laoder and adopt the breech loader.

> "And the British press made quite a deal of the win, of this side match"

It was the first time the Americans had been defeated, so the press being as they are/were naturally made the most of it. It however certainly does not rank with the earlier matches in the internationals series though, and in some respects is a rather sad end to the era of international matches.

Oh I recall reading somewhere, but can't find source right now, that one of the rules of the match was that no sharing of information was allowed by the shooters. Another rule Hyde was criticised for accepting.

> "However we still need to find out what Garrish was using and what chamber length was it for this world record. We know it was a borchardt but What chamber lenght?"

Doesn't the earlier Forest and Stream info cover that, or is the data in dispute? I was informed "Gerrish used a Model 1878 Sharps Borchardt with a bit of pitting ahead of the chamber to achieve his remarkable score. It was chambered for a 2.4 inch shell (standard Borchardt cartridge) and was loaded with 105 grains of No.5 Creedmoor powder, made by Laflin and Rand."

Anyone know anything of the powder - what sort of grading was it?

David

[Kenny Wasserburger]

David,

Not sure where the reference to Garrish using a 2.4 case came from I have not read that in my stuff> could you list your source? A rifle with a pitted bore? makes me think that something is not right, ment that the rifle had been not well taken care of at one time? As to getting 105 grs in one? Todays case yes with ALOT of compression and I mean alot. Something they did not do at that time. So again I question the actual case length in use. Forest and Stream loads mention that Hyde and Garrish and some others in Oct of 1879 where using loads from 106 to 115 grs of powder all Fg. I am betting these were 45 2-7/8ths cases.


One of things this thread started out about was talking about the use of duplex going away. Which I hope it does. Now that means some folks are limted in the 2.4 case with powder capacity. I still think we will ses a trend toward larger 45 caliber cases as time goes on with this if the Rule stands.

As I had mentioned in earlier posts many Swiss Shooters and Goex shooters that use the 2.4 and the 2.6 case lenght use duplex to up the velocity and To clean up the fouling. That is not a issue in the 2-7/8ths case with Fg loads.


I still think that there is a good reason to believe that these 45 2-7/8ths Long range rifles were built with folks that were knowledgable enough to chose that caliber with good reason. Todays shooters (that includes me) have been long lead to think that the 45-110 suffers from poor quality powder so we are not able to make it shoot like the old time buffalo hunters did. The 45-110 and the 40-90 Bn Sharps were the 2 most popular rounds listed in use on the MT-WY herds at the end of the hunt. Funny that this time frame also is the end of LR shooting.

In todays powders we have Swiss, and Goex to choose from. I know a good many shooters using Swiss and its good powder. I know of at least one shooter using Fg Swiss in his New Shiloh 45-110. We know from experience that his load of 98 grs of Fg Swiss is very close to my 108 gr load of Fg Goex in velocity as with the Paul Jones Creedmoor bullet my goex load shoots about 1 point flatter at 800-900-1000 yards in his Ballard 45-110. Both powders yield a very clean burn in a 45-110. I have not made a quantified study of that but bore inspection showed that both left very clean bores compared to 45-70's and some 45-90's.

I am looking forward to my match in May at least 2 or 3 45-110's are to be on the line. Mine is not one of them but it will be there from some fun shooting and testing of course.

The old timers used Fg powder with GOOD reason I am thinking now. I bet more will today to in the time to come.




Kenny Wasserburger

[Texas Shooter]

Kenny:

"However we still need to find out what Garrish was using and what chamber length was it for this world record. We know it was a borchardt but What chamber lenght?"

I am going to follow up with this, and try to get at least one reference.

So far this week has been very busy, but I will get to it as soon as possible.

Ty O'Neal
Texas Shooter

BTW:

When the Borchardt comes out, will you order the Frank Hyde rifle?

or?

[dbm]

Kenny,

> Not sure where the reference to Garrish using a 2.4 case came from
> I have not read that in my stuff could you list your source?

I am afraid I am quoting information second hand right now. That is what I was informed the article in Forest & Stream covering Gerrish's record score said. I am hoping to get a copy of the article in the next two weeks or so and will verify data published then. Can't add anymore right now, but am enjoying the detective work...!

David

[Kenny Wasserburger]

While:
David is still digging. I sort of hate to see this thread die off. Its got alot of views and its about Shooting and the History of this sport and not some dang cat fight.

I still recall the original intent of my first post, Trends in Todays Second Golden ERA of Creedmoor.

With the use of Duplex soon to come to a End in national Level Shooting I still think we will see a trend towords 2.6 and 2 7/8ths case lenghts more. Many of the Swiss shooters are Duplexing and yet this powder is the best BP made or so the claims go. (it is Good Powder no doubt! )

However its not the second coming of BP as some would lead you to think. Unless your using Fg Swiss that is. Then of course you know what I am talking about. We have by accident or design have re-found what the Original Creedmoor Shooters knew. Fg Powder is perfect for LR shooting in larger cases. Much the more so in the 45-110.

We got naysayers thats true but the challenge is still there and here, TAKE A LOOK DOWN MY BARREL. ANY TIME!

Kenny Wasserburger

[Kenny Wasserburger]

I have been in Email conversations with Scooter.
Scott had thought of buying his Brother in laws 45-120 a used gun. I advised Scott to call Shiloh and see what was on the Rack. I knew they had a pack harden #1 in 45-110 as my buddy Jimbo had told me of it last week when he went up and bought his rifle. I did not Tell this to Scott as I did not want my personal Caliber choice to influence him unduly.

After a phone call with Lucinda it now would >>>>>>

Seem Scott is heading out for Big Timber to buy a new Shiloh. Scott asked me my opinion on 2 rifles they have on the rack. A #1 in 45-110 with Pack Harden and a few other options and a Hartford in 45-90.

As everyone knows I am a big Big Fan of the 45-110. This however will be Scott's first rifle, He asked my opinion on the 45-90. Based on the Fact that Scooter is a new shooter I advised him to go with the 45-90. Due in fact to the cheaper brass, cheaper dies and the 45-90 might be a simpler cartridge to start out with.

The 45-90 will also have less recoil then a 45-110. A important factor the 45-110 has recoil, in my opinion it however does not kick anyworse or more so then a stiff loaded 45-90. I think the recoil pulse is less with Fg loads in the 45-110. Yet good sense won me over to give Scott the best info I can.

Depending on what he thinks of the 2 rifles he may go with the Pack Harden #1.

What ever Sharps Scooter settles on be it 45-110 or 45-90 I am sure some of us can shorten his Learning Curve a good Bit.

Good Luck Scott aka Scooter And lets hear about that Rifle As soon as you can get back.

Kenny Wasserburger

[Scott]

Kenny,
Not to turn your thread into a travelogue, but had to postpone departure due to weather conditions (heavy, wet white stuff, along with wife's pleadings) -- after drive cleanup and getting ducks back in order (you know how scheduling goes), may attempt another departure today. Perhaps while I am in Big Timber, I should shoot both cartridges and make a decision then as I am still undecided -- however, I DO have the 45-90 on hold in a back corner where nobody can see it (according to Heather). Will advise on decision..........and thanks for all the thought you've put into getting me on board.

Scott

PS - since I'm running thru Gillette, is there anything you need from Big Timber??