Trends in BPCR Long Range Shooting

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Kenny Wasserburger
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Trends in BPCR Long Range Shooting

Post by Kenny Wasserburger » Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:46 pm

Of late, we have cussed and discussed the best caliber and type of rifle for LR BPCR Shooting.

Be it as it may the caliber in the fore front of the competition and wining the lion’s share of matches today is the 45-90, loaded most often with Swiss 1.5 and often with some Duplex powder. The duplex load is smokeless and is often RL-7 or another Smokeless powder.

In the old days the 45-90 for Long range was loaded with 100 grains of powder and a 520 to 550 grain bullet. It was so much in common use that the 45-100 aka the 2.6 was abandoned in just a short year or so. Today’s 45-90 aka the 2.4 does not have the capacity to load 100 grs of powder with out a great deal of compression involved. So Duplex has become the Standard.

Current purists are making changes for the better????? To Limit and even abandon the use of Smokless powders in the duplexing of BPCR loads. This coming year at Raton, BP only loads will be the required load for NRA Creedmoor Nationals. This is in my opinion a step in the right direction, after all we are BPCR not Duplex CR shooters. Current Powders offered make this a viable option, be it Swiss or Goex however case size is the main factor in what will work and what will not.

Most Serious LR Shooters that I know, enjoyed the 45-90 and the results of Duplex and the extra speed attained with the Duplex load method and the cleaner Shooting loads that duplexing yielded. With this to be no longer an option at National Level competition, one must wonder if the Match attendance will suffer and thus the Sport of BPCR Creedmoor. It is my hope that this is not the case as International Matches require the use of BP only loadings now.

I know of one very good LR Shooter, out of Cal that uses the 45-100 and is an excellent shot, he has rather pointedly admitted that his 45-100 with Swiss fouls badly with out the Duplex charge. He is now working his tail off to come up with a Straight BP load for his rifle, in time for my own LR Match in May.

Some folks that have not shot Creedmoor may wonder aloud as to the reasons of Duplex loading. Clean burn is the major one, but in the capacity challenged 45-2.4 case of today the extra umph is needed to attain a good Muzzle velocity in the 1330 to 1380 Fps area that most Long range shooters are wanting with their 540 to 570 bullet weights. Some folks are compressing Swiss and reaching this MV with out Duplexing, they are in the minority as most Top guns do not compress their Swiss loads. That does not make them wrong and Time will Tell if that is the new way Swiss will be loaded.

A 2 Time National Creedmoor Champion, and a friend of mine is playing with Swiss FFFg to attempt to reach the speed he is looking for, he has had some fouling and leading Issues that I know of. Others such as my self are trying Traditional LR Cartridges of known reputation as a different way to avoid Duplexing loads. Various 45-110 shooters are all having good luck with Fg powder be it Swiss or Goex in these large cases and seem to have fouling issues well in hand. On the International scene at lest one shooter is having some very good results with the 45-120 aka the 45-3.25 case.

A few noted shooters, are using a 45-70 with FFFg Swiss and have had some very good results with that. And it is a viable option it would seem.

A note of interest is many of today’s shooters that are using the 45-100 2.6 case report fouling issues and that’s why they are duplexing.

As the original Creedmoor era came to a close, the 44-77 which had been the first cartridge to be used was no longer in use. The 45-100 and 44-100 were of known usage in Sharps and Ballard and Remington LR rifles. The 45-90 was designed with Target shooting in mind yet was a short 45-100 for all intents and purposes based on the days loading of that time.

Original Creedmoor Targets were of steel with a special Center bull of one piece that Rang like a church bell when struck and was audible at the firing line when stuck. These targets made of many cast steel plates were 12 feet wide and 6 feet tall. The center Bull was 36 inches in size. Today’s Creedmoor target is 6x6 feet and has a 44 inch bull. Our British Cousins were the ones that introduced the canvas and paper target, yet American shooters were loath to give up the beloved clang of the Bull on the steel target and resisted the change for several years. Some things Never Change and today some of us are trying to revive that type of Creedmoor match.

While I like shooting paper Creedmoor Targets I must admit that like the shooters of yesterday I really enjoy Traditional Creedmoor when shot on Steel Targets. I also am of the feeling that Duplex smokeless loading is a crutch that this sport no longer needs.
Todays, Creedmoor era is all ready having its 9th National Championship in 2004. That means it has lasted longer then the first Creedmoor Era. At the end of the first Creedmoor era one of the nation’s best LR shooters was playing with a 45-110. A long way from the 44-77 that was first used. Also the Sharps Borchardt was the standard to shoot against by 1880. The side Hammer 1874 and the Roller were no longer in vogue. Ballard had a special LR model the 7A-1, and Remington had the Hepburn.

Long Range shooting fell on hard Times in the USA in the 1880’s and interest was lost let us hope that politics and other issues do not put an end to this Second Golden age of Creedmoor any time soon.

It’s my hope to see many new faces and old ones at the first Major Creedmoor Match of the season, in May. I think by the end of that 3 day match some new Trends in BPCR Long Range shooting may come to the forefront. In all I think it’s going to be one hell of a season!

Kenny Wasserburger
We'll raise up our Glasses against Evil Forces, Singing, Whiskey for my men, Beer for my horses.

Wyoming Territory Sharps Shooter

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Post by N2 » Mon Feb 16, 2004 7:35 am

Kenny - While I will agree with you that today's 45-2.4" brass won't hold 100 grains of powder I will argue that neither would the brass of old IF you tried to seat bullets as deeply as most of us do today. Those paper patched 550's loaded for target shooting in the first Creedmoor era only had about 1/8" of bullet seated in the case.

My current 45-2.4" load with Goex Cartridge and a 540 grain bullet with all grease grooves covered chronographs at 1224 fps and has scored quite well out to 1000 yards. Goex FFG will add another 25-30 fps to that and with Swiss 1½ I can push it up another 25 fps. I don't need a duplex load and after witnessing two "incidents" with duplexed loads a few years ago I never planned on using them anyway.

While the 44-77 BN may have been prematurely retired from Creedmoor in the 1870's-1880's I believe the cartridge is fully capable in that role. I've spent a lot of time with this cartridge over the winter. My current 44-77 BN load propels a 507 grain Brooks Creedmoor to 1274 fps with 2002 Goex FFG. I have yet to see an ES below 11 fps, but I can live with that. Unfortunately my LR opportunities are limited, but I may get the chance to test this load at 800-1000 yards Memorial Day weekend.

I know you like your 45-110, but don't discount the 45-90 or the 44-77 BN. Personally I think a conventionally loaded (all grease grooves covered) 45-2.6" is about as good as it gets for Creedmoor. - Nick

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Post by Bearbait2 » Mon Feb 16, 2004 8:41 am

N2,
If you have the time, please provide additional details regarding the "incidents" you witnessed. We have been using duplex loads for many years without problem but there is always a first time. Thank you.
Shoot Straight

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Post by N2 » Mon Feb 16, 2004 12:39 pm

Bearbait - I'll be happy to share those incidents with you. Please understand that while I don't duplex myself, I have no problem with those that utilize this practice as long as they stay within the rules of the game.

The first incident took place in 1998 at a mid-range WA state. There were a number of things happening in this match that I didn't agree with and by reading this I'm sure you'll note most if not all of them. The gentleman next to me was breech-seating his bullets ahead of what was supposed to be 25% smokeless powder charges. This worked fine for most of the match and in fact I'd seen the same person perform the same tasks before without incident. This time something went seriously wrong as the report of the rifle was very sharp and very loud, he let out an exclamation, smoke was leaking from the receiver, and the block needed a "little" extra persuasion to open. As he was firing a Ruger #1 this particularly concerned me. Upon lowering the block the primer fell out of the case. Cleaning and inspection easily revealed a bulge in the barrel just ahead of the throat. As he was shooting gas checked bullets I have my opinion as to what happened.

Incident number two took place in 1999 while shooting in OR. I observed another shooter extracting seperated case after seperated case (40-65) from his 74 Sharps with what were supposed to be 10% smokeless loads. Based upon the elevation diference in his sight staff and the gentleman's I was spotting for (same rifle mfg, same cartridge, same bullet, and distance), I have my doubts about the % of smokeless.

While I didn't mention it in my first post there was a third incident here in TX circa 2001. While attempting to pull targets at 1000 yards for a gentleman shooting 45-70 duplexed loads we had a number of rounds drop into the pits low enough to hit steel and frag those of us in the immediate vacinity. I didn't mention this before as I have safety issues with that range, but his explanation was he has different loads for different distances and "his wife" had mixed them up.

The common denominator here is duplexed loads. I find it much simplier to load a cartridge designed for black powder with black powder. In many thousands of rounds fired I have never had an incident like those above. As long as the rules allow for duplex I'll continue to shoot with people that find it necessary, but I won't use that "crutch" myself. - Nick

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Post by Jsmith0013 » Mon Feb 16, 2004 1:47 pm

Kenny:
I enjoyed your post. Very well written. I have two 45-90's. The first is a Shiloh, with no throat. The second is a Browning Creedmoor, with a throat.
As regards the Browning rifle......Using GOEX FF I purchased 2 years ago,
I can drop tube 100 grains into a Buffalo Arms stretched case and have just enough room to finger seat a .030 LPDE wad. I then compress this .350" and seat a Brooks 349C copy weighing 540 grains, and having the first and second driving band reduced to bore ride. This produces 1330 fps. I shot it last year at Denny Wilcox's Creedmoor and Buffalo Gong match in both May and September and did very well with it, and experienced no fouling problems. It will shoot 7" groups at 500M if I do my part. Recently I purchased some new GOEX and have found the new stuff is just slightly denser than the old. Using the new, I dump in 103 grains of FF and follow the above routine. It is generating 1340 fps.

Two Saturdays ago I did some load testing with a new PJ Creedmoor, 560 grains I just received with the first band at bore ride. It took me by surprise as my measurements indicated I could get 110 grains of FF in the case at .350 compression. To do this I dumped in 100 grains and compressed .350 and then the last 10 grains and compressed slightly. The sixth shot of a 10 shot string separated the case and stopped exploration along that avenue. AV = 1390 fps, SD = 8.00. I suspicion that the 2 stage compression contributed to the case separation, as it was the first time I had ever experienced one. I really do not know...just won't try it again.

Yesterday I did some further load testing with this 560 gr PJ Creedmoor. I tried 3 different loadings of Swiss 1.5, 90 grain, 95 grain and 100 grain. These ranged in compression from .200 to .360". The 100 grain loading with .360 compression moved along at a AV = 1401, ES 14, SD=8. Accuracy with all 3 loads was approx 5" at 200M, so no good there. I just point it out to show we can get the 1350 plus with the 45-90's.

Accuracy wise, I've had no luck with the PJ Creedmoor 560 grainer (45015) but given Saturdays results with Swiss, intend on going back to my modified 349C and giving it a go with Swiss 1.5. I should easily hit 1400 fps...what it does accuracy wise remains to be seen on paper.

Looking forward to your match in May.
Jim

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Trends in BPCR Long Range Shooting

Post by pcc9433 » Mon Feb 16, 2004 2:27 pm

Kenny...enjoyed your "crystal ball" look at BPCR trends. Thank you for sharing your views / experience with us.

Please help me, though, with one question.....I have seen numerous discussions about Creedmore matches, but I have been unable to find Creedmore match rules, or even what the match consists of, steel gong or paper. Please give an internet reference where one can learn about Creedmore matches, rules, distances, etc. Thank you for your help.
P Chase
Amarillo, Texas

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Re: Trends in BPCR Long Range Shooting

Post by dbm » Mon Feb 16, 2004 3:46 pm

[quote]I have seen numerous discussions about Creedmore matches[/quote]

Not meaning to be picky nor single anyone out, but the above miss-spelling of Creedmoor is a common mistake. Perhaps some understanding of how the name was arrived at would help correct this!

The gentleman credited with coining the now famous appellation is Colonel Henry Glenville Shaw. A Civil War veteran, Shaw returned to New York City after being mustered out of the Union Army. In Jersey City he was elected Captain of Company E, 4th Regiment New Jersey National Guard, and soon attained the rank of lieutenant-colonel. Colonel Shaw was actively involved in the organisation of the National Rifle Association and was a member of the range committee. The first landowner’s name was Creed, in whose family the property had been for generations. Arriving at the site and observing the open, desolate field, with coarse, scanty grass and brambles – he declared it a veritable moor, Creed’s Moor. Hence by happy inspiration and coincidence “Creedmoor” became the name of the new range.

David

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Post by Kenny Wasserburger » Mon Feb 16, 2004 4:39 pm

N2,

Nick, as allways good to hear from you. I once had a Load of Fg Elephant that was around 1225 fps worked OK at 800,900,1000 yards. However on some days it just was in the tank, alot of vertical stringing. This happend with the dreaded 10 and 2 winds most of the time at Raton! As time went on I learned, mainly from better LR shooters that most figured a Min Velocity of 1300 fps was required to shoot well in all conditions Frank M also is one of the better LR shooters that agrees with this.

I have after the past few years tend to agree with this assessment and personaly like a MV of some where around 1320 to 1340 fps with a 540 gr bullet.

I once tried the duplex method, got plenty of velocity but did not clean up the Elephant load I was using very well fouling was still a issue. FFg in a 45-110 will yield around 1400 fps. Recoil and the resulting fouling were not worth it. And difficult to control.

One thing that has come apparent is that a slow rate of fire and keeping barrel temps under control helps alot. Some times this is hard to do at Raton of course. Clean burning loads be it what ever cartridge you shoot are a must!

Swiss Bp is the most common used today in LR Shooting. Goex is also a good choice for some calibers and some folks are using it. It has not been in the winners circle of late due to a lack of use by many of the top shooters. However it can do well in the proper rifle and caliber combo just as well as Swiss contrary to what some folks think. At the NRA LR Regional in Missoula this past Sept, I think I was the only Goex user in the whole match. For my caliber choice it seems to work quite well.

Nick I tend to agree with you on the 45-100, but have seen and heard of several folks that have fouling issues with this cartridge in LR Shooting. Pat Taylor of CA is one of the better long range shooters in the country, he duplexes because he has too. Fouling is hard to control in his 45-100. MLV has a 45-100 that he has mentioned has had fouling issues.

Nick dont let me infer that I discount the 45-90 cant do that! IT wins too much! As for the 44-77 its a great cartridge. I am still pondering why it was dropped, I think the 45's proved to be superior in the long run and thats why it lost favor.

My thinking on the 45-90 that many of it's Users will be reworking loads now that the use of the Duplex Crutch looms before them.

As was my hope this post has began some good discourse on the subject.


Mr Chase, as for an internet source of Creedmoor rules, I am not sure. The NRA has a rule book for BPCR target rifle which includes rules and ranges for todays Creedmoor.


Todays Creedmoor match is fired at 800-900-1000 yards as was the original Match. However it is shot today on the Standard NRA Highpower LR Target. Rules are pretty simple 20-30 mins for fire depending on the range this allows as many sighting shots as one wishes then 10 shots for Record. This match is usually fired Twice for the National Championships that the NRA holds ie a 2 Day match, with a total of 60 shots for record. NRA targets are 6x6 feet and have a 44 inch Black bull with a 10 inch X ring in the center of the bull scoring rings go out to 7 in the white and a hit outside the 7 ring anywere on the target is valued as a 6. This target is used at all distances.

Traditional Creedmoor, is shot much the same manner as the original matches where. The first Traditional Creedmoor Range, in over 100 years, was built about 8 years ago in Wyoming. It has a sister Range in Butte Mt that was built just last year. Dependent to the range the targets maybe 8 feet wide and 6 feet tall or 6x6 as todays Creedmoor is. However USA Traditional Creedmoor targets have a 36 inch bull as the originals. Scoring is a 5 for a hit on the center bull and a 3 for a hit on the outer part of the target. There is a Third Range in Texas also, Similar to the range in Wyoming. I know of at least one range just like the Wyoming Range in New Zealand. Traditional Creedmoor lacks the extensive Range flags and some of the more modern aspects of Todays Creedmoor. IT however is a great test of ones long range shooting skills as the original match was.

As our friend David from England has pointed out the Creed Farm was the home to the Range that took its name from the Creed family. As it was indeed much like a Moor the name Creedmoor was given to it and thus a legend was born.

I hope we have some more positive feedback on this thread.

Kenny Wasserburger
We'll raise up our Glasses against Evil Forces, Singing, Whiskey for my men, Beer for my horses.

Wyoming Territory Sharps Shooter

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Post by Ray Newman » Mon Feb 16, 2004 5:25 pm

Creedmoor: presently the site is a NYS mental hospital for patients with chronic psychiatric disorders who are too unstable to be managed in an outpatient setting.

If memory serves me correctly, the butts we located in the approx. intersections of the Grand Central & Belt (??) Parkways. Around 1910, the range finally gave up the ghost & NYS took it over for the hospital.

If you look on a map of LI, NY, you’ll find Creedmoor State Hosp. The surrounding area has several interesting named streets: Gun Hill Road, Winchester Boulevard, Springfield Ave, etc. A very old map will show many more firearms-related names, which were later changed.

From what I can remember from reading local historical accounts, the site was chosen as a local railroad line (the LIRR??) was close by & the Flushing (Meadows?) Bay tidal flats were a part of Creed‘s farm & the land thought not to be very useful.

(My Dad owned a produce truck & we made numerous deliveries to delicatessens, restaurants, etc., in the area. Hard to believe that its been over 40 yrs since I last jumped down from the old White Superpower to make a delivery. Thanks for taking me back….)

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Post by N2 » Mon Feb 16, 2004 6:27 pm

Kenny - I thought I'd get a response out of you with my answer. Fact of the matter is I've been working with my Shiloh 50-90 with the intent of using it in LR competition. I just started working with a new lot (2003) of Goex Ffg. My 650 grain Paul Jones Creedmoor was hitting 1297 fps with it's most accurate charge weight in 40° weather yesterday. Run that temp up another 40° or 50° and it'll surpass your magic 1300 fps.

The problem with this plan is that blasted 44-77 BN keeps shooting beyond my expectations and it looks like 1300 fps may be possible with it as well. We have a limited opportunity to shoot 800-1000 yards here and it would be a kick to place well with the 44-77 BN in one of those matches if for no other reason than the perception that BN's can't shoot. For that matter it would be a kick to place well with my 50-90.

I'm a little surprised you're still shooting the 540 grain bullet. Why not a 560 or heavier? With that big case I would expect you to see a better burn with the heavier bullet. - Nick

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Post by Kenny Wasserburger » Mon Feb 16, 2004 8:48 pm

Nick,

A 50-90? ouch! Yeah I know several Good Shooters that play with that round too Jim Eaggleston is one, and Dick Hanson is another. I saw Dick Crash and burn real hard with his 50-90 at Raton at 1000 yards in 2002. The bad thing with the 50 one has to have a 650 to 700 gr slug to get the same thing one has with a 45 cal 540 gr bullet. And some folks give me crap about my 45-110 and recoil? WOW a 50-90 is a monster compared to my 45-110.


As for me using a heavier bullet? Nope the 540 Jones is perfect for the 45-110. It shoots very clean, VERY CLEAN! Better then anyother BPCR I currently own. Some folks dont believe it but it sure does.

Jim Smith, thanks for some of your insights on the 45-90 makes this thread what I was hoping for a discourse and sharing of information on these calibers.

Nick, the 44-77 as cool as it gets for a Sharps no doubt. But I think there were reasons why it fell from grace so to speak? I admire that your playing with one and I am just tickled that yours shoots that good, it comes as no surprise, the Cartridge had that rep 120 plus years ago.

At the end of the buffalo era the 45-110 ruled on the ranges, and the 40-90bn was also well spoken of up in our area of the great last Hunts.

In all fairness I still think the 45-100 is also a way cool cartridge and some day I plan on visting the 40-90 BN again also.

I think there were good reasons that the sharps factory in 1878-79 catalogs mention that a 45-70 and a 45-110 were the factory Standards and the rest were all special order.

What I am really thinking is that as in the past, Course they did not Duplex, today's LR shooter with out his duplex Crutch may be going back to bigger and longer cases again?

This past nationals Dave Gullo and his Borchardt in 45-100 were using Duplex to win this national Championship. I find this interesting, and sort of funny. Why? well the year before at the LR Competitors meeting he had a public discourse with me, informing me that he did not need to duplex to win? And was all for the banning of Duplex. Yet the next year he was duplexing His swiss loads? Dave is an excellent shot and perhaps even better at reading conditions, but he knows Raton as well as anyone perhaps better. He knows that the conditions and that range is the toughest in the world.

You see that was my first year of attempting to use Duplex and at the time I was still undecided as to if Duplexing should be still allowed. To see Dave use Duplex to Win, sort of struck me funny.

In all I hope we hear from more LR shooters, on this aspect of our sport.

Kenny Wasserburger
We'll raise up our Glasses against Evil Forces, Singing, Whiskey for my men, Beer for my horses.

Wyoming Territory Sharps Shooter

Vbull

Post by Vbull » Mon Feb 16, 2004 10:08 pm

Kenny, all,
There is not much to add. It has been hashed over several times in the last couple years. I for one am glad to see duplexing on its way out. I believe it was necissary in the eary resurgence of long range BP shooting due to the limited brass availability and limited knowledge in getting the longer cartridges performing well enough. That is not really the case today. Relativly inexpensive brass and hotter rifle burn rate powders have made it easier to compete at long range with a BP rifle.

I don't believe any particular cartridge has an advantage over another at the long range game so long as the minimum velocity (1320 fps) with a heavy bullet (at least 530 gr.) and managable amount of fouling is used. There are many ways to achieve these requirements. I don't believe the choice of action makes much difference either, so long as you are comfortable with it. (Trapdoor lock time is on the slow side) I've owned just about all of the more common ones at on time or another and shot them all. They all have their own strengths and weaknesses.

Untill someone developes a homing bullet, this game is won by wind doping. Either in a 2 man team (US NRA style) or by true guts, a la international style where its only the shooter and the target. It is hard to describe how difficult it is shooting a long range match without coaching until you have done it.

As far as current trends in long range paper matches, it looks like a 44 or 45 caliber, 530+ gr bullet, driven to 1320 - 1400 fps in a rifle heavy enough to reduce the felt recoil.
There are external limits such as minimum (power factor) velocity, rifle weight (depending on what organization is running the match) and propellant type.

Getting the velocity can be done with straight black in a .45-70 if it has been freebored / throated, or a 2 diameter bullet is used. This is assuming the use of a hot rifle burn rate powder and a lot of load development. This approach is being done successfully but is not the easy way.
It takes less development with .45-2.4, 2.6, or longer cases and lots of shooters have recipies that work.

Gong style matches on the other hand could take a different turn. There are a number of experimenters trying to get the smaller calibers working at long range. These would include the larger 40's both straight and BN, the long 38's and even .35's. Their criteria is simply put a hit on a steel target. No minimum velocities or retained energy to worry about. The advantage of reduced recoil and flatter trajectory could be a real advantage. Time will tell. Even if they do well, or maybe even dominate the gong matches, I don't believe they will ever make the cross to paper LR matches. The safety issue weather real or percieved would have to be resolved.
Thats my take on it today. Could and probably will change as time marches on. Frank Monikowski

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Post by Kenny Wasserburger » Mon Feb 16, 2004 11:16 pm

Frank,

Thanks for weighing in. As always your opinions and counsel are well worth the read. I have to say that I agree with you on just about every single point you made.

As for the game, and your asessment that its a wind dopers game could not be more true. Be it teamed with a spotter or on one's own. (which I sort of perfer). The old Highpower shooter in me I recon.

I really enjoyed my weekend in Missoula at the regional in Sept, doping my own wind, it sort of was the icing on the cake. As you said one has to do it to really understand that aspect of it.


Traditional Creedmoor with its Steel targets does render the Pwr Factor a non issue. One thing about is unlike other Gong matches. The tough part still remains IE the Bull, the more bulls, wins the match no mater what. Pit duty is not a problem and the match moves along rather fast. Still the best shot with a scoreable bull wins not some one that uses the whole target and never gets to center. However it has yet to be seen for one of the tiny bores to really show its stuff at least on my range.

As Frank pointed out, There are many ways to skin this Cat ie Black Powder Creedmoor. Which was the intent of mine to get accross. Powders of several makes and Actions and of course Calibers all will do the job. It just takes the right combo of them to work. Ie Match your caliber and Case size to the powder that works best.

For you folks that dont Know Frank, a past world Long range World Champion. We have been visting on the internet for about 5 years now. Back then he went by El Paso Frank and was training for Quantco VA World Match. I finaly got to meet Frank face to face at the 2002 Raton Creedmoor Nats. I consider Frank a friend and value his input when it comes to BPCR

Again Thanks Frank for taking the time to post.

Kenny Wasserburger
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Wyoming Territory Sharps Shooter

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Re: Trends in BPCR Long Range Shooting

Post by dbm » Tue Feb 17, 2004 7:16 am

[quote="Kenny Wasserburger"]Long Range shooting fell on hard Times in the USA in the 1880’s and interest was lost let us hope that politics and other issues do not put an end to this Second Golden age of Creedmoor any time soon.[/quote]

There appear to be rival(?) factions in LR shooting and I cannot believe this can be good for the future of the sport. LR shooting is a relatively specialised field and spreading shooters into seperate camps cannot be a good idea.

Last year there was a World Long Range Championship held at Bisley, here in the UK, and hosted by the NRA(GB)/HBSA (Historical Breechloading Smallarms Association). I am not sure who the governing body for this match was, but understand that the next match is to be held in South Africa in 2006. This match permitted the use of both BPCR and muzzle loaders.

Then there's the World Creedmoor Association(?) who appear to be a different Association to that organising the above World Championships.

How does the latter organisation fit into the overall scheme and am I correct in my assumption that they both have slightly different aganda's?

... oh and if you are interested in muzzle loading the Muzzle Loaders Associations International Committee (MLAIC) held the World Long Range Muzzle Loading Championships at Camp Butne, North Carolina, in Septemeber 2003 with matches at 300, 500, 600, 900 and 1000 yards. The next is scheduled for Bisley, UK, in 2005.

David

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Post by KHR » Tue Feb 17, 2004 12:26 pm

Hi all,
what an excellent thread, I'm learing a lot just by reading. Nick, could you comment a little more on the 44-77 BN? Do you shoot it in a heavy barreled gun (14lb) for longrange or a lighter one?

also please comment on the loads and accuracy you're getting from the 44-77 BN. Is it tricky to get to shoot well?

:-)
keith

PS where is the creedmoor range in texas?
Some originals and some Shilohs.
Molon Labe

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