Trends in BPCR Long Range Shooting

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ian45662
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Re: Trends in BPCR Long Range Shooting

Post by ian45662 » Sun Jan 03, 2021 3:43 pm

Distant Thunder wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 3:12 pm
Well, I guess the secret is out! Thanks, Ian! Now I'll have to find a new advantage!
OOPS!!!

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Re: Trends in BPCR Long Range Shooting

Post by Kenny Wasserburger » Sun Jan 03, 2021 4:23 pm

This is going to be interesting.


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desert deuce
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Re: Trends in BPCR Long Range Shooting

Post by desert deuce » Sun Jan 03, 2021 4:50 pm

So, where does one purchase Lyman #2 ?
Sometimes you get the chicken, and sometimes you get the feathers!

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Re: Trends in BPCR Long Range Shooting

Post by Kenny Wasserburger » Sun Jan 03, 2021 5:15 pm

Roto metals?

I am just going to use 95-5 lead free solder. Start from there with 20-1 from John Walters.

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ian45662
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Re: Trends in BPCR Long Range Shooting

Post by ian45662 » Sun Jan 03, 2021 5:30 pm

Kenny Wasserburger wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 4:23 pm
This is going to be interesting.


KennyWasserburger
I am pretty excited. I wonder at what point one would start seeing deminishing returns. I made another batch of alloy bud this time 16 pounds lead 1 pound tin and 5 pounds Wheel weights instead of 4

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Don McDowell
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Re: Trends in BPCR Long Range Shooting

Post by Don McDowell » Sun Jan 03, 2021 5:35 pm

desert deuce wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 4:50 pm
So, where does one purchase Lyman #2 ?
Buffalo Arms or Roto Metals.
AKA Donny Ray Rockslinger :?

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Re: Trends in BPCR Long Range Shooting

Post by bruce m » Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:02 am

desert deuce wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 4:50 pm
So, where does one purchase Lyman #2 ?
make it yourself.
bruce.
ventum est amicus meus

beltfed
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Re: Trends in BPCR Long Range Shooting

Post by beltfed » Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:54 pm

I have been shooting my 9+1 COWW/Lino alloy in most of my rifles/handguns ,
including from the "get go" in BPCR around year 2000.,
( In my BPCR rifles I did compare it to Lead Tin 16+1, etc. and found the 9+1 works just fine
as long as the base of the bullet, gg or PP is at or preferably a thou or so over
FF case neck I.D. /freebore dia and groove dia.)

I noted above, comments of concern about age hardening. I
had read in the NRA Cast Bullet handbook about the age hardening.
Indeed, I compared my antimonial alloy hardness with age, Yes, freshly cast 9+1
would lead up a 44 mag I was shooting in handgun Sil. Aged the noted 19-20 days-no leading
and great accuracy.

SO, my motto is "shoot no antimonial alloy bullets before their time" namely 19-20 days. say 3 weeks.
( kind of like the old saw " drink no wine before its time"
beltfed/arnie
Here is a brief table/info on age hardening of Antimony/tin/lead alloys from the NRACBH, work was done in late 1960s. Great ref book.
PbSbSnAlloyAgeHardeningNRACBH.JPG
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Re: Trends in BPCR Long Range Shooting

Post by bruce m » Tue Jan 05, 2021 12:01 am

when i started with black powder, 20:1 was considered a hard alloy, 30:1 was quite popular, and pure lead had its followers.
a few like dan theodore were pushing 16:1, and had a few followers were regarded as red headed stepkids.
they were dealt with either by denying their existance, or simply by saying something like "i just use 20:1" and leaving it at that.
they had mostly obviously never tried anything but 20:1, so would not have really known anyway.
since then we see guys going 14:1 and 12:1 and reporting success.
and now we see the addition of antimony as well.
the black powder crowd has always been conservative and been inclined to resist experimentation.
but now those who have experimented are being listened to much more.
alloys are discussed openly, as are dual diameter bullets, and many other issues, which is healthy.
in earlier times most thought that bore diameter bullets needed to be soft to bump into the rifling, but we now know they can be somewhat harder and do so with aplomb.
interestingly paper patching is taking off now more as well.
the above comments primarily apply to target shooting, and hunting bullets and ammunition is a different animal.
however guys are coming to grips with shooting dirty, and looking for bullets with better terminal ballistics.
bruce.
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Re: Trends in BPCR Long Range Shooting

Post by ian45662 » Tue Jan 05, 2021 6:01 am

I will admit that I used to tell people that if you want to shoot bore diameter Bullet then your alloy shouldn’t have any antimony in it. Looking back I can now say I was dead wrong.

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Re: Trends in BPCR Long Range Shooting

Post by Kenny Wasserburger » Tue Jan 05, 2021 10:44 am

We are all learning.

Never say never, I guess.

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Re: Trends in BPCR Long Range Shooting

Post by Kenny Wasserburger » Thu Jan 07, 2021 4:59 pm

With the email from BACO on my dual diameter design, I am excited. The theory behind this makes sense, and with Jim and Arnie’s help this was, as Arnie mentioned a team effort.

All the good things that this forum is supposed to be about, took place in my thread, the sharing of information and ideas, in a positive manner to help me design the bullet to fit a specific need. Will this be a trend in BP long range I am thinking so.

Kenny Wasserburger

PS, I am going to add Antimony to my alloy in small batches, hopefully with my new Lab radar I can see if there is a increase in BC with the Harder bullets, as Ian has seen using his. I am also planning on building a bullet trap box full of oiled sawdust similar to One Lee Shaver built some years ago.

Kenny Wasserburger
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Wyoming Territory Sharps Shooter

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Re: Trends in BPCR Long Range Shooting

Post by Kenny Wasserburger » Sat Feb 06, 2021 5:26 pm

So far no word on my Dual Diameter bullet from BACO. And we are enduring some real winter here again, so casting is out anyway.

My reasoning on using thin paper and as fat a bullet as possible yet when patched fit the bore has been successful. In my opinion the dual diameter bullet has the larger base that acts similar to a bullet patched to Groove depth. Theory suggests that the base will not have to upset so much to fill the grooves, upon firing. This in turn should mitigate the amount of lead displaced in the base, and reduce bullet shortening and slump. Furthermore it appears that alloys sweeten with Antimony will only help, increasing compression strength.

If my line of reasoning is incorrect, I would love to hear discussion on it.

KW
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Don McDowell
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Re: Trends in BPCR Long Range Shooting

Post by Don McDowell » Sat Feb 06, 2021 6:06 pm

I'm of the mind that your theory on the dual diameter bullets is pretty good. I also think there may possibly be a fine line between the base section being to long and to short, and making the bullet balance well. Altho I do have to throw the caveat in with the dual diameter my 44-77's shoot so well it doesn't seem to matter whether the bullet is 1.1 inches long with a very short base section, or whether it's 1.4 with a long base section.
Alloy I believe becomes more critically important with the nose shape, much like a grease groove bullet.

One thing I can say definetive about the dual diameter bullets , if a rifle likes them it'll really like them , if it don't you're just hosed.
AKA Donny Ray Rockslinger :?

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Re: Trends in BPCR Long Range Shooting

Post by bruce m » Sat Feb 06, 2021 9:46 pm

hi kenny,
my dd moulds have all been based on seth cole, and either 55y or www will work.
there is a slight difference in warpped dia with these papers.
i have a big mob of the baco 9 lb paper, and might one day get a mould made to suit that thickness just to use it up as well as out of interest.
i cannot say much about antimony use, as all i have tried is lyman no2 cut 50/50 with lead.
was going to try that a bit harder but never did, as 12:1 lead/tin worked so well.
i might have gone harder on that but for dan theodores hardness testing over time of lead/tin/antimony bullets showing that work needed to be done on hardness variation with time, and did not have the time to do that and relate it to firing tests.
also metford and halford wrote to each other a lot about that, and i am not in their league. :roll:
yes the bases of these bullets bump up less with all the benefits that you say, plus you get a gas seal much quicker.
this base will in fact be groove diameter , and that is not a problem.
bore diameter bases also become groove diameter.
my lead tin bullets bump into the rifling like ordinary bore diameter ones.
fired bullets show no sign of there ever being 2 diameters before firing.
if yours will not shoot, there will be a reason for it.
once you learn to patch the dual diameters, you will not find it too bad.
with the proper template yo can make those ends meet all the way down from top to bottom.
you will just need to find it.
bruce.
ventum est amicus meus

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