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N2
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Post by N2 »

dbm - As noted in the Roberts book the Remington Creedmoor was chambered in a number of calibers. Part of the problem is that we like to compartmentalize things into finite packages like 44-77 or 44-90 and the shooters of that day weren't so obliging. Evidently these gentlemmen were handloaders and loaded whatever charge was accurate in their rifles. The 75-90 grains noted by Kelver may have been for different ranges although I can't imagine why there would be a 15 grain range.

There's an abundance of conflicting data regarding the chambering of these rifles, but the case length you provided from one source is pretty definitive, at least in todays terms of 44-77 BN versus 44-90 BN. From your message it appears Bailey was referencing a case length from 1874, not 1876 or later. As there is data which implies the 44-2 5/8" BN case wasn't available until 1876 it would be nice to know the year he was referencing which still looks like 1874 to me.

Regardless of which case these gentlemen used, I enjoy shooting my 44-77 BN. It's abilities have exceeded my expectations. The reports of it's excessive fouling and accuracy issues are grossly exaggerated. Those issues may have had more to do with barrel dimension variability of period rifles than anything else. That's not the case today. While the BN case takes a bit more care in loading and handling than a straight walled case, it is fully capable of shooting with them. - Nick
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Post by Troll »

Sellers based his information on the Sharps Factory shipping records for the Creedmoor Rifle; therefore I will probably go with his statements. All but 4 rifles were made in 44 2 5/8. Three were 40-70 and one was 50-100.

The 45-100 only appeared in the long range rifle. These rifles eventually replaced the creedmoor rifles.

Therefore the early Creedmoors were only chambered 44 2 5/8, 40-70 BN, or 50 2 1/2.
-Finese is choosing the right size hammer
N2
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Post by N2 »

Troll - Fact of the matter is I tend to agree with you regarding the caliber of the Sharps Creedmoor rifles used in 1874, but not for the same reason. Using only one source for your information regarding events of 130 years ago is iffy at best especially when conflicting information exists. As cited in Winston O. Smith's book, The Sharps Rifle, the 44-2 5/8" case didn't exist until 1876. Do I believe Sellers because his book is newer and more available or do I believe Smith whose research and book were nearer the event? While I go with Sellers it's because I have enough information from other sources (now) to conclude the Sharps rifles used at Creedmoor in 1874 were chambered in what we call the 44-90 BN. A number of people still think the "Big 50" chambered by Sharps was the 50-3¼" Sharps which didn't exist until after Sharps went under. The reason we know Sharps never chambered a rifle in that caliber was the technology didn't exist to draw brass cases to that length at that time. That piece of information comes from machinist literature, not gun lore.

This is beginning to sound like a lecture and for that I do apologize. I'm certainly not qualified to lecture anyone regarding 19th century history. I'm just suggesting you look outside a single resource to corroborate your conclusion.

I just can't resist asking this question. To be clear, which 45-100 are you referring to? As I'm sure you know, there were three different cartridges chambered by Sharps that could be called the 45-100. What we call today the 45-100 is the 2.6" case and it was the shortest lived of the three. - Nick
Kenny Wasserburger
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Post by Kenny Wasserburger »

Nick,

Any way you sice it, and I just looked up the referece in Robert's book, the 44-77 was a great cartridge and is VERY! Period Correct for a Sharps. Thus the Cool factor is way up.

I have noticed that some special made to order calibrs listed for the LR model as a 45-90 2 7/8ths and the 40-90 BN.

This tread has taken some neat turns, As I have read in the Sellers book the 44-90 BN was felt to give to much recoil and was part of the reason that the 45 2.6 was brought about and then just year later the 45 2.4.

In time the 78 came out and there were some made in 45 2.4 and 45 2.6 and at least 13 made in 45 2 7/8ths.

As David has pointed out American shooters used more and a slower powder then the Brits. And Won the majority of the matches. Funny that foul was called on the wiping between shots as the muzzle loaders were more or less doing that with each load.

I still would like to find some more information on Garrish and his world record score that he fired just shortly after returning from England. We know it was a Borchardt but what Case lenght was that 45 he used? Was it one of the 45-110's that Frank Hyde had built or was it a different one.

Kenny Wasserburger
We'll raise up our Glasses against Evil Forces, Singing, Whiskey for my men, Beer for my horses.

Wyoming Territory Sharps Shooter
dbm
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Post by dbm »

Kenny, you referred to 'foul being called on the wiping between shots' but so far as I have been able to determine this was not the case in long range shooting during the period of the International Matches.

I suspect in military rifle matches (NRA(GB) competitions at Wimbledon)cleaning may not have been allowed, but I have not found evidence of it for the 'any' rifle matches until the 1880's. Cleaning would have been permitted at the time of the Creedmoor internationals, it may just not have been practised.

Cleaning rifles between shots became quite common in match rifle events after the American success in the early internationls. In 1878 there was a proposal put before the NRA(GB) Council that match rifle events be restricted to breech loaders, to encourage their develeopment. This was thrown out due to the large number of ML match rifles in private-hands and there were fears that competition entries would diminish. The NRA Council did however resolve in 1878 that in match rifle comps "cleaning out WILL be allowed between each shot, provided that the competitor be ready to fire when called upon in his turn." That year John Rigby, using a muzzle-loader and cleaning between shots made the best score ever achieved in the Elcho Shield (a 'home countries' international team match between England, Ireland and Scotland).

It was not until 1883 that cleaning out between shots was prohibited in the match rifle events and by this time the Palma trophy had not been shot for five years, so any rules with regards to no cleaning were introduced after the decline of the competition.


I note Gerrish was part of Frank Hyde's unofficial team to Wimbledon in 1880, where of the eight Americans he was 7th in so far as score. This match was a disaster for the US team losing with a score of 1,568 against the GB team score of 1,647.

What was Gerrish's record and at what distance? Actually other information such as dates and location would be interesting. In case you hadn't guessed I like collecting all this data! :)

Speaking of records, in the 1876 Centennial Match, J.K. Milner of the Irish team fired 15 consecutive
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Post by dbm »

Ooops! :oops:

continued from above....

Speaking of records, in the 1876 Centennial Match, J.K. Milner of the Irish team fired 15 consecutive bull’s-eyes for an unprecedented maximum score of 75 x 75. When one considers that this was achieved without the benefit of sighting shots it makes the achievement all the more remarkable!

David
Kenny Wasserburger
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Post by Kenny Wasserburger »

Hey David,

Garrish was or at least noted in American records as being very ill after the crossing over the Irish Sea and did poorly at the match.

In the last match in June of 1880, they shot against the English and Irish at Dollymount. The English were using Rigby rifles its noted and lost by only 12 points. Sir Henry felt that the American team won by their spirit of cooperation and of course enjoined them to the Hyde Halford this was fired in July and of course the Americans lost, this challenge match.

As for the record score shot by Garrish and I Quote: From the Sellers book on Sharps Rifles.

As a closing note, however, it should be pointed out that upon his return to the USA, William Gerrish, fired the highest recorded score ever made with a Sharps rifle. On Sept 25, 1880 Gerrish fired a total score of 224/225 at a long range match at the Massachusetts Rifle Club.

The Sharps rifle maintained its reputation as THE Long-Range rifle as late as 1900 when William DeV. Foulke won the NRA 1000 yard match with his 1878 LR Sharps. This was at Sea Girt NJ.

David you mentioned that the Americans only shot against the Irish at Dollymount in 1880 by my refereces say that the English team shot there and this is where Halford issued the challenge to Hyde.

Now if I can get my hands on some stuff from Forest and Stream Still would like to know more on these 13 Borchardts. I know your English sources say they were all rebarreled but Hyde's rifle is still around and your source was wrong about that ammo too. Or else Frank Sellers is and he quoted from National Archive sources.

Kenny Wasserburger
We'll raise up our Glasses against Evil Forces, Singing, Whiskey for my men, Beer for my horses.

Wyoming Territory Sharps Shooter
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Texas Shooter
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Post by Texas Shooter »

Kenny:

You noted that, "On Sept 25, 1880 Gerrish fired a total score of 224/225 at a long range match at the Massachusetts Rifle Club."

Do you know if the, "Massachusetts Rifle Club", is still around? They might have some history about that event. Also, since it was such a notable score, the local paper probably wrote about it. That might be a good place to extend your knowledge. Many papers either have back copies for research, or they have been tranfered to microfishe, or are online.

If you would like for me to try some of these ideas, let me know. For all I know you might have already done this.

Take care,

Ty O'Neal
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Post by Texas Shooter »

Kenny:

The Massachusetts Riffle Association was founded in 1875. This might be helpful.

http://www.massrifle.com/

Texas Shooter
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Kenny Wasserburger
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Post by Kenny Wasserburger »

Tye,

If you think you can find out anything by all means please go for it!

Thanks for the offer and no I had not thought of these venues!

Kenny Wasserburger
We'll raise up our Glasses against Evil Forces, Singing, Whiskey for my men, Beer for my horses.

Wyoming Territory Sharps Shooter
dbm
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Post by dbm »

Kenny wrote "In the last match in June of 1880, they shot against the English and Irish at Dollymount."

I thought this was a result of an Irish invitation to the NRA for an informal match between the two countries in an effort to revive the waning public interest in LR shooting and that the English were not involved. So far as I know five of the Irish team used new Rigby breech-loading rifles and the sixth man a Metford.

I still haven't done a lot of research into this match though or the subsequent shoot at Wimbledon, but hope to spend some time at the library in the next couple of months.

David
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Post by Texas Shooter »

Kenny and All:

I am giving you an update on what I have done so far. I have contacted ASSRA and the Mass. Rifle Association and am in contact with their archivist. Below I will post my coorespondense with them. Please answer to the best of your knowledge any question you think you might have an answer for. (It reads from bottom to top)

I am acquiring as much information as I can, so I can forward it to them.

I think the progress so far looks hopeful.

Give me your thoughts on this process.

Thanks,

Ty O'Neal
Texas Shooter

------------------

Dear Rudi:

I'm going to contact several people with your request, so I can acquire the most accurate information for you. It may take a couple of days, but I will contact you asap.

Below, I will post a message sent to me by Dick Stanton with some of his findings.

Thanks for taking the time to help us with this issue.

Best Regards,

Ty O'Neal
---------------------------------------
From Dick Stanton:

Richard Stanton wrote:

Ty; I have
Sellers book and found the info about Gerrish and the match. William
Gerrish was one of the founders of the Mass. Rifle Assoc. in 1875. So
far I have not found any info regarding the rifle he used, bullet, load
or even the range that he made the score. Rudy is the archivist for the
ASSRA and has several bound volumes of Field and Stream magazine from
the late 19th. into the 20th. century that can be rented to members of
the Assoc. Had an extended phone conversation with Bob Summa the other
day and I told him about your quest. He will be at the club Sunday morn
. I left a note in his tray with your phone number and e-mail address.
He will give you a call when he has a chance.
If you have any other questions I would be happy to answer them if I
can. Dick

-------------------------------------------------

Ty; A sort of
P.S. Glad you are joining the ASSRA along with some one else. Their
magazine is excellent. Lots of interesting articles and info about the
rifles, bullets, loads, etc. of the late 19th. and early 20th. century.
There is also another great publication you should subscribe to, The
Single Shot Exchange, 67 North Congress St.,York, South Carolina 29745.
Tel.(803) 628-5326, e-mail:singleshotex@earthlink.net. $31.50 for one
year. Articles and lots of ads pertaining to S.S. Shot rifles, cartridge
cases, molds, etc. Dick


-----------------------------------


rprusok@mail1.nmu.edu wrote:

Dear Texas Shooter: Yours of 2-23-04 in hand, and I'd be happy to help you
with the Gerrish score details of 1880, but I'd need some more information.
What were Gerrish's initials? He's not mentioned in the index of
Sellers' book and there are two men with his name in the Broadfoot index to
The Rifle (1885-1888): Dr. Charles H. and William. That's probably
irrelevant to the search because it's five years after the match in
question, but it would help a great deal if you could give me all that you
know, and the specific sources. W. Gerrish is Mentioned in Trefethen's
Americans and Their Guns as being a member of the 1878 Creedmoor team. (p.
78)
The archives have some issues of Forest and Stream but are missing
the issues between June 24, 1880 and October 31, 1881, which surely would
have an account of the Gerrish score. I have a phone number for Steve
Edelman (804-364-4272) who has a complete run of that magazine, but it's at
least ten years old and I have no idea where he lives (or lived). It might
be worth a try to call him with your quest, particularly since you have a
specific date. Another option is to ask your local library to look on
"World Cat" on the computer to see which academic libraries in the country
have copies of American Field, and then ask one of them to make a photocopy
of the page with the information you need
Another possibility is to contact Robert Summa, the curator of
shooting information at Walnut Hill, home range of the Massachusetts Rifle
Association (Mass. Rifle Club) and ask him if he has any references to
Garrish's 1880 score. his address is 821 Saratoga Street, East Boston, MA
02128, (617) 569-7074. He also might be able to give you the name of the
local 1880 newspaper which might have an account of the Gerrish score, and
the name of the local library to call. Beyond that, how about running a
request for information in the Report of the Sharps Collectors Association?
Often collectors have the kind of materials you seek, and someone might
even have that rifle and all the details of the score. The editor is Jim
Zupan, (248) 547-1242.
Sorry I can't be of more help, but please include me in your
discussions and endeavors, and know that whatever useful materials are in
the ASSRA archives are at your disposal.

Rudi Prusok, Archivist
625 Pine Street
Marquette, MI 49855
(906) 225-1828
"Aim Small, Miss Small!"
MikeT
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Post by MikeT »

Great start! Texas,
Stay on the scent. We'll be anxious to hear the lastest results.
This could be an interesting adventure.
Keep on hav'n fun!
dbm
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Post by dbm »

Rudi mentioned the 1878 Creedmoor team. What should be kept in mind about this event was that there was only an American team present. No other coutries accepted the invitation to compete for the Palma trophy and the US team shot without any opposition. The last 'real' match of the series was in 1877 when the US beat Great Britain.

Gerrish was part of the unofficial US team to Wimbledon following the friendly match in Ireland in 1880. His scores were:

800 yds - 72
900 yds - 60
1000 yds - 58
Total - 190

Top US score (Jackson) was 209
Top GB score (Milner) was 212

Non of the sources I have list Gerrish's initial.


David
dbm
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Post by dbm »

Rudi mentioned the 1878 Creedmoor team. What should be kept in mind about this event was that there was only an American team present. No other coutries accepted the invitation to compete for the Palma trophy and the US team shot without any opposition. The last 'real' match of the series was in 1877 when the US beat Great Britain.

Gerrish was part of the unofficial US team to Wimbledon following the friendly match in Ireland in 1880. His scores were:

800 yds - 72
900 yds - 60
1000 yds - 58
Total - 190

Top US score (Jackson) was 209
Top GB score (Milner) was 212

Non of the sources I have list Gerrish's initial.


David
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