Raton Dates announcement

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gunlaker
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Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2009 6:16 pm

Re: Raton Dates announcement

Post by gunlaker »

My local club has tons of guys shooting PRS or F-Class. Not a single one of them has ever accepted my offers to try my various black powder rifles. I don't think it's the cleaning. It the fact that they don't have any interest in shooting a rifle that won't shoot under 1/2 minute groups. None of these guys are spray and pray types :-). Only when they get older and get an appreciation for history are they likely to develop any interest in this sport IMO.

Chris.
SFogler
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Re: Raton Dates announcement

Post by SFogler »

Before I joined my current gun club, I used to go to a range where I rarely saw a target at the 300 yard maximum distance. The firing line was always full of people but they were popping away with .223's at 50 yards or sighting in their hunting rigs; 2" high at 100 yards - good to go. They thought my Sharps was pretty cool and noticed that the target all by itself out at 300 yards was mine. Things started changing with the popularity of the 6.5 Creedmoor cartridge. Targets started appearing at the 300 yard line a lot more. Shooters were bringing high quality long distance rifles and were concerned with MOA and precision shooting. I think over time some of those shooters will get curious about our historic version of long range shooting and will want to try the challenge of black powder. The .22BPCR course of fire is appealing to many people I know who are not interested in shooting off hand or seeing how fast they can empty a magazine. That is another opportunity for shooters to get interested in our sport. My current gun club is exploring how to get the 600 yard hi power range extended to 1000 yards - that's a start anyway.
jackrabbit
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Location: Carpenter Wyoming

Re: Raton Dates announcement

Post by jackrabbit »

I have to chuckle a little at the stereotypes and ideas that many older people have about the younger generation. These younger shooters (who are supposed to be rare) are supposed to be all about spray and pray, lots of rounds, probably talking about video games when they are waiting to shoot, with no interest in obtaining any actual knowledge about how the guns work, the history, or how to improve. And of of course there are not any prizes for the winners with everybody getting an award. An oh the PC! No jokes, no rough language, lots of questionable gender folks running around, and every effort is made to make sure no one is offended....

For folks that think this, they should stop by the awards ceremony for a PRS match sometime. Holy moly, talk about absolute ruthless competition, and a bunch of very intelligent and skilled shooters. It is also about as non-politically correct as you can be. They often border on profane, and I can about guarantee no one cares about anybody feelings. It almost appears to me that there is a bit of a rebellion going on toward all of these ideas about how millennials are supposed to act.

We can argue till the cows come home, but I will stand by my beliefs that people are drawn to competition. They want to know who wins and they want to be a winner. Any matches that encourage competition, reward the winners, and most importantly, publicize what is going on both before and more importantly after, will be successful. The more we try to make it PC, non offending, participation awards, etc, the more the sport will fail. Look back to the glory days of BPCR. We had new rifles for prizes at the nationals as well as lots of other nice awards, we had lots of coverage in the BPC News magazine, as well as we had MLV doing articles in several of the major magazines, and we had the full support of the NRA and the Whittington center. I felt like it used to be a really big deal who won the National Matches, and lots of people (like me and my family) who had never went knew who won and talked about it. Look to today, we give tons of door prizes, offer new rifles in a random drawing, absolutely ZERO publication about the national matches or who wins, very little in the way of awards, and we wonder why entries and interest are lacking.... Well I don't wonder anyway, I know.
take care, Cody
semtav
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Re: Raton Dates announcement

Post by semtav »

jackrabbit wrote:



We can argue till the cows come home, but I will stand by my beliefs that people are drawn to competition. They want to know who wins and they want to be a winner. Any matches that encourage competition, reward the winners, and most importantly, publicize what is going on both before and more importantly after, will be successful. The more we try to make it PC, non offending, participation awards, etc, the more the sport will fail. Look back to the glory days of BPCR. We had new rifles for prizes at the nationals as well as lots of other nice awards, we had lots of coverage in the BPC News magazine, as well as we had MLV doing articles in several of the major magazines, and we had the full support of the NRA and the Whittington center. I felt like it used to be a really big deal who won the National Matches, and lots of people (like me and my family) who had never went knew who won and talked about it. Look to today, we give tons of door prizes, offer new rifles in a random drawing, absolutely ZERO publication about the national matches or who wins, very little in the way of awards, and we wonder why entries and interest are lacking.... Well I don't wonder anyway, I know.
take care, Cody
Exactly my point on my first post here. Nobody cares cause its not made important enough to splash all over the internet and print publications.
And exactly why I always tried to publish the results of any match I was involved in running.
Plus it brings more interest in the match.
gunlaker
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Re: Raton Dates announcement

Post by gunlaker »

Cody I think pretty much everything you've said is bang on.

Chris.
Gussy
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Re: Raton Dates announcement

Post by Gussy »

One of the things that has stopped some younger people, which can't be over come, is the ammo we use. Turned off a couple of my friends.

Tell someone you need to cast bullets, load shells with powder, compress, put a wad in .....eyes roll and they walk away.

Compare that with be going in a store and getting a brick of .22 or a case of .223 for 200 bucks. Kids don't have or want to spend the night reloading.
gunlaker
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Re: Raton Dates announcement

Post by gunlaker »

Gussy wrote:One of the things that has stopped some younger people, which can't be over come, is the ammo we use. Turned off a couple of my friends.

Tell someone you need to cast bullets, load shells with powder, compress, put a wad in .....eyes roll and they walk away.

Compare that with be going in a store and getting a brick of .22 or a case of .223 for 200 bucks. Kids don't have or want to spend the night reloading.
Gussy I think that also stops a lot of older people too :D
CO
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Re: Raton Dates announcement

Post by CO »

I'm one of the "old balls" that attend matches all around the country as well as nationals. At 76 yo and health problems, i know my shooting good scores is a thing of the past. I DO attend matches to visit with old friends and have a reunion of sorts. I still enjoy shooting, and plan to continue as long as possible. No amount of hard work or shooting practice is gonna make me a world class shooter. However, at one time myself and hundreds of others in my age group shot well enough to keep this country safe so that you can own guns and participate in competitions. I have no desire for a door prize nor do I have a desire to become an internet hero. Those of you that don"t like the way our matches are run, maybe should try some of the matches you seem so impressed by. Or maybe shooting with other younger shooters might scare you a bit. Just saying----------- CO
jackrabbit
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Re: Raton Dates announcement

Post by jackrabbit »

Thank you for your service, CO.
SFogler
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Re: Raton Dates announcement

Post by SFogler »

One of the things that has stopped some younger people, which can't be over come, is the ammo we use. Turned off a couple of my friends.
But to people like me the ammo we use was the whole draw to BPCR competition. It's different - it's challenging. Laying in the dirt with an old time rifle on cross stocks shooting through a iron sight to a 1000 yards? Using a black powder load? Who does that? Most people I talk to think BP is something the mountain men re-enactors pour down the barrel and maybe hit something at 100 yards. They have no idea about BPCR silhouette shooting or Creedmoor competition or how accurate these rifles really are. Smokeless shooting is all over the place, rightly so, and no problem. But what we do with old style rifles and black powder is not for everybody. Nor should it be. Ours is a unique niche sport and we should be proud of it and speak well of it to other shooters. And if we have a complaint in a forum it should be accompanied by a positive solution aimed at correcting the problem.
gunlaker
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Re: Raton Dates announcement

Post by gunlaker »

BPCR/BPTR sure is different, and in many ways much more interesting than other types of shooting matches for sure. The historical aspect of rifles and ammunition are the most interesting part. Like was said by someone earlier, it takes time for some shooters to get into the history of it. Often that means older people. I arrived here completely by accident. I got into single shots after buying a .45-70 Marlin for grizzly protection at our cabin. At that time I never really knew anything about Sharps rifles. The .45-70 cartridge and its history kind of drew me in and now shooting these old single shots is nearly the only type of shooting I do.

Chris.
semtav
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Re: Raton Dates announcement

Post by semtav »

Jeanne Ring wrote:I've held my tongue as long as I can.

The sporadic dates are not the fault of the NRA competitions division; rather, the NRAWC 's availability.

As far as the dwindling numbers, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. Recruitment begins at the local club level.

What are YOU doing to bring new shooters to the game?


Boy I don't even know where to start here. I'm about to get flamed so bad I'm gonna be a tiny cinder!!

I'm obviously Part of the Problem. As are all of the people that have posted here because I still haven't seen a plausible solution put forth to turn the this around.

Maybe instead of blaming everyone that would like to see a healthy BPTR Nationals, The NRA should sit down with not only people that do attend the Nationals but also people that are putting on sanctioned and non sanctioned shoots and find out why people are attending the other matches but not the NRA Nationals.And not continually make the decisions at the Nationals and then change them later but make decisions after the season is over and stick with them.

You say this is not the NRA's fault. Seriously ???? You can't help that the NRA dates are all over the map ??? Really ??? Maybe not you personally now, but if the NRA would have had an outline from the first of how to run this, they would have had a date and schedule locked in as long as it was held.

You now have a date a couple weeks after the Quigley !! How are you going to capitalize on that. do you have a booth at the Quigley ? You should have one there with the nationals plastered over every corner of the tent with rule books and people to answer everyones questions and and anything else that would attract more shooters. There are a lot of people there that are retired that might make a Local Match the next week and could just as easily head south to Raton the week after.
Maybe actually get some feedback from participants at the Quigley and find out why they don't care to Go to the Nationals. A lot of them Love to come to the Long Range Matches around this part of the country.

Maybe find out, if the NRA had another category separate from the Black Powder categories that would allow for one or two Gateway drugs highly restrictive to what the NRA deemed safe, if you could draw enough shooters to make it feasible .

You really expect 50 or more shooters that can't even conduct themselves amicably on a forum to be the solution to these problems ?? Good luck.

You want me to be part of the solution ?? Change the schedule to something like Thanksgiving or Christmas Vacation ( or anywhere between November and February ) and add a special category for those that shoot Blackhorn 209 out of new rifles with limited case capacity and not only will I show up, I'll bring a few shooters with me. ( I'll be the one shooting PP bullets and Black powder, but can't guarantee you any others will be.)

You are the one we are paying to do this so have at it.!!!!!

Flame away !!!!
semtav
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Re: Raton Dates announcement

Post by semtav »

And yes I know you can't do raton in the middle of the winter.
Jeanne Ring
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Re: Raton Dates announcement

Post by Jeanne Ring »

And for those who thought this thread couldn't get anymore negative, divisive, or nasty, in walks SEMTAV.

SEMTAV, please introduce yourself to me at Nationals in 2019. I would love to meet you.
semtav
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Re: Raton Dates announcement

Post by semtav »

Jeannie
I sincerely apologize if my post came off as nasty. It wasn't meant to be that way. guess that's just the way I come off to some.
Since I've told you why I can't make it to the Nationals in 2019 I'll introduce myself here so you don't think I'm hiding behind some moniker.
My name is Brian Schwend and I live in Forsyth Montana. Maybe I can introduce myself to you in person if you are ever out this way. ( I could even run down for an afternoon and introduce myself if you have a booth at the Quigley (; )
I've been shooting in this sport about 10 years, And for same amount of time I've been reading the same thing about the Nationals and nothing has changed in those 10 years . Maybe now that you are overseeing it they will.

I got to thinking after I went to bed, that I don't even know what your job description is. If its to make sure these NRA matches are run properly and the NRA provides all that is needed at them, then it sounds like you are doing a great job.

I know you weren't responsible for the decline in numbers so I'm sorry if you took it that way.

In your post I quoted, you said if we are not part of the solution, we are part of the problem, so please tell us what the problem with the nationals is.
Is it all about numbers?? If so tell us how many the NRA feels we have to have at each venue to not be a problem. Is it money. Does the NRA not have enough money to continue these matches unless so many people show up. Or do we even have a problem. I just thought it was disingenuous to tell us we are the problem. Since I couldn't make it to the Nationals and everyone was worried about the youth and numbers, a couple years ago I offered to pay the way if someone would take young person along to the Nationals. I had no takers.

Personally I would think these specific venues would be considered successful if the top shooters were still wanting to attend and they came away feeling like it was a very enjoyable match. It looks like you at least are on the right path there.

If its all about numbers, Then I think it is going to take some long term planning by the NRA.
I could go on but it would probably be unproductive,.

thanks again for taking the time to participate here and put up with us and again I apologize for coming off as MR Nasty !!.
Brian Schwend
ex MR NASTY (I hope)
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