Raton Dates announcement

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Jim Kidwell
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Re: Raton Dates announcement

Post by Jim Kidwell »

All,
Try not to second guess what is happening. As a Silhouette Committee member (BTW, we are not compensated), the NRA is doing what ever it takes to increase the shooting sports participation. In the past, the Whittington Center has had to deal with the YHEC schedule (1500 youths, plus their parents.).
They have alternated their schedule every other year at Raton. Ergo, we have had to alter our schedules. This left us with shooting either the first of July or the end of July. August is out due to the availability of setters. This has caused much grumbling, because many could not plan their vacation schedules accordingly.
Next year, YHEC has decided to stay at the Whittington Center for at least five years. Their schedule ties up most ranges for almost three weeks of July.
The 2019 BPTR, BPCR, 22BPCRA and Lever Action has been moved to the June period. We hope we can count on this period for future years. The NRA is aware of consistent dates, but has been ham stringed by large commitments, such as YHEC.
We asked for an early announcement for the 2019 dates and were able to get them. It’s a start, maybe a small start, but it’s a step.
Let’s try to stay positive. The Nationals has always been the peak of the shooting year, a great time to link up with old friends, a positive learning experience for new shooters and on and on. It might not agree with your job schedule and that is too bad. Don’t use the schedule to degrade what is a great event.
The NRA is now using experienced Match Directors to run our Nationals rather than “accountants”. Let’s give them your support in growing our numbers again. FWIW……………
....................................Jim
You are a ghost driving a meat covered skeleton made from stardust riding a rock floating through space.
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John Bly
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Re: Raton Dates announcement

Post by John Bly »

Finger pointing about lower attendance results in absolutely nothing. Attendance is down in almost all shooting activities. There are a few exceptions, 22 BPCR and Lever Action Silhouette are two. I shoot in the N-SSA. We used to have about 3600 members, now it is a struggle to keep it around 3000. The NMLRA muzzle loader shooter numbers are down. At Friendship the old timers would not allow anything but muzzle loaders on the range. Now we shoot BPCR silhouette there to help keep the range in operation. Virginia had 300,000 deer hunters 25 years ago, now it is down to less than 200,000. Even Kidwell's match this past weekend was not filled and it's always a fun match. We are a dying generation of shooters. Very few young people are getting into shooting sports. Media coverage is all negative about about guns and shooting. The days are long past when the New York newspapers ran the Creedmoor results daily. Instant gratification is in style. Computer games fill this void, You can shoot 200 bad guys in 20 minutes vs taking all day to shoot a target or silhouette match. With real guns the tendency is to spray and pray that one bullet will hit the target rather than taking one shot that you know damn well will hit the target.

Each one of us need to be active in trying to bring new people into our activities whether it be silhouette or target matches, so let's quit our bitching and bring someone new along next year and try to grow our attendance. I enjoy shooting but I enjoy the camaraderie more than anything. It was good seeing folks in GA that I had not seen for a while.

My shooting partner Glenn has stopped shooting and I don't know if or when I'll make it back to Raton. For 5 years we travelled and shot matches from TX to GA, IN, KY, PA, MI and Raton. We referred to ourselves as the Mid-Atlantic ambassadors. Now at age 72 I need to find and break in a new shooting partner and I have no idea what the future holds for me but I hope to make it back to the Nat's sometime before I go toes up.
"Perfection consists not so much in doing extraordinary things as in doing ordinary things extraordinarily well"
Ray Newman
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Re: Raton Dates announcement

Post by Ray Newman »

"We are a dying generation of shooters. Very few young people are getting into shooting sports. Media coverage is all negative about about guns and shooting. The days are long past when the New York newspapers ran the Creedmoor results daily. Instant gratification is in style. Computer games fill this void, You can shoot 200 bad guys in 20 minutes vs taking all day to shoot a target or silhouette match. With real guns the tendency is to spray and pray that one bullet will hit the target rather than taking one shot that you know damn well will hit the target."
--John Bly

BINGO!
Grand PooBah
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jackrabbit
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Re: Raton Dates announcement

Post by jackrabbit »

So what is your explanation for the huge success of the PRS and NRL matches? I have been to several now and they have huge entry fees (150-500 bucks) huge equipment costs, and the matches often fill with a couple of hundred entries in 48 hours two or three months ahead of time? BPCR shooters think their equipment is expensive, but all of my BPCR equipment is less than many of those guys have in their scope. By the way, the oldest competitors are in their 50's, and I would bet the average is 30 or less.....so much for young people not liking to shoot.

The absolute facts of the matter are they do these things:
#1 The winners are celebrated and there are really good prizes for the winners! Everybody wants to win because you win great stuff and you are made a hero all over the internet, as well as at that match! There is no sympathy for the losers, and there are damn sure no door prizes. If you want to win something shoot better.

#2 The matches are on weekends where working men can actually attend. One day matches are actually more popular than two day matches because people don't have to miss work. If you want younger people to shoot events, you have to have them so they can attend without missing a bunch of work. Guess what? They don't have the championships in the middle or beginning of the friggin' season either.

#3 At the matches I have been to, they have a whole different feeling than going to our Nationals. It has flavors of serious competition, social events like banquets and live bands, and are very well organized. In general, the competitors are there to shoot to the best of their ability and do their best to win.

Our National matches have turned into some kind of attempt at a social event/reunion type gathering for a bunch of old balls that just want to whine about how all these youngsters don't want to shoot and the world is going to shit, and it's not fair cause the same guys always win, we need lots of door prizes for just showing up, no need to give a prize worth a hoot, on and on.....bullshit! You guys can all ride that sinking ship if you want, I am not.

If you can't tell, I am about fed up.
Cody
rdnck
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Re: Raton Dates announcement

Post by rdnck »

I've been fed up for quite some time now. Shoot straight, rdnck.
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Aero
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Re: Raton Dates announcement

Post by Aero »

Cody gets it, not all shooters are a dying breed.

There's a little LR rifle match in Arizona in February. Registration was done in early September through the Practiscore website. 360 spots were available. It sold out in 14 minutes with well over 100 on a waiting list. Read that again. One of the keys to the success of this match is that the NRA is not involved. Same goes for the PRS and NRL stuff that Cody mentioned. Seems like there might be a little match in MT that can say the same thing. Maybe a relatively new 22 game owes a bit of its success to setting up their own sanctioning body as well.

I started competitive shooting in about '95 or so and have shot a number of rifle disciplines. Even shot an IHMSA match a while back just to see what that is all about. Been to the Nationals in Raton a time or two. Universal throughout those games is the complaints about how NRA runs things, almost as if they really don't give a shit about competitive shooting. And that's fine. If the NRA wants to just spend their time and money on lobbying for gun rights, more power to them and I'm all for it. Just quit pissing down my neck and telling me it's raining.

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mike herth
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Re: Raton Dates announcement

Post by mike herth »

Cody,
“Everybody wants to win because you win great stuff and you are made a hero all over the internet, as well as at that match! There is no sympathy for the losers, and there are damn sure no door prizes. If you want to win something shoot better.”

Really? Winners adorned with great prizes and hero status across the world wide web? In contrast to the bottom-feeding, scum-sucking “losers” who just have to learn how to shoot better? Sounds like a good time to me, especially with $150-$500 entry fees for a chance to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with the elites. Best of wishes in fulfilling your dream, seriously.
I’ll just continue enjoying local matches and camaraderie with others where there are match winners but no losers, reasonable entry fees, and amenities such as free camping, etc.
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Don McDowell
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Re: Raton Dates announcement

Post by Don McDowell »

:lol: Wonder if they were trying to give us a subliminal message at the BPTR nationals, with all those Ruger pistols and 30 round AR magazines as door prizes..... Starting to look like the message boys we're glad you came, but we're going to do the best we can to kill it, here's something to get you started on a new sport... :mrgreen:
AKA Donny Ray Rockslinger :?
jackrabbit
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Location: Carpenter Wyoming

Re: Raton Dates announcement

Post by jackrabbit »

mike herth wrote:Cody,
“Everybody wants to win because you win great stuff and you are made a hero all over the internet, as well as at that match! There is no sympathy for the losers, and there are damn sure no door prizes. If you want to win something shoot better.”

Really? Winners adorned with great prizes and hero status across the world wide web? In contrast to the bottom-feeding, scum-sucking “losers” who just have to learn how to shoot better? Sounds like a good time to me, especially with $150-$500 entry fees for a chance to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with the elites. Best of wishes in fulfilling your dream, seriously.
I’ll just continue enjoying local matches and camaraderie with others where there are match winners but no losers, reasonable entry fees, and amenities such as free camping, etc.
Michael, I think misunderstand what I was trying to say. I don't want to make BPCR the PRS or whatever, but what I was trying to say was that some of the things people think we need to do to attract people is not true. At some point, we have to look at our dwindling numbers and the success some of the other disciplines are having and ask ourselves what are we doing wrong. I don't believe it is the equipment or the game, but it is the way we are running things. Also, please do not put scum sucking losers into my mouth as I enjoy all of the shooters. Some of them want to win, and others just like to shoot to enjoy themselves and the company, and that is great, they are not losers and they are all welcome at my place. The great thing about the NRA competitions is the classes. A class shooters compete against A class shooters. If you keep losing A class, then shoot a little better and win A class. What does irritate me is those few that do not want to put the effort into what it takes to improve, but demand to receive door prizes and like to tear down the guys that do work hard to win.
Coltsmoke
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Re: Raton Dates announcement

Post by Coltsmoke »

We are just not going to get the young people interested in our sport, unless, it is one of our shooters' son or daughter, or grandson. The black guns and video games is just more exciting and fun for them to do. All we are going to get are deer hunters that are middle aged or older and they are tired of dragging deer thru the woods. They've already killed several trophy deer or they've given up on that and done killed several truck loads of does and smaller bucks. Now they are burnt out on it and our game catches their attention. They are old enough to be interested in history and shooting, that is where our game comes in. The younger ones will get tired to spraying bullets one of these days and as they age they will stumble across history and maybe look our way, one of these days. We've had several shooters join our bunch since I started, but they are middle aged shooters. I just don't see the young guns coming our way, and I don't think it is anything we are doing or not doing. Just my thoughts, maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong.
Normal isn't coming back, but Jesus is.
jackrabbit
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Re: Raton Dates announcement

Post by jackrabbit »

I don't disagree with what you are saying, but I do wonder if it is right. These other matches we are talking about are not spray and pray matches. They are precision matches where you need to make each shot count. They take a high level of skill, and investment in money and time to win. They are not that different than BPCR matches. It surely appears that what is driving their success is the competition and the reward for winning.
John Bly
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Re: Raton Dates announcement

Post by John Bly »

I was not familiar with the terms PRS and NRL so I looked them up and you are right, these shooting activities seem to be growing. The Benchrest Varmit venue at Ridgway is growing and they draw up to 150 shooters on match day and shoot all day long. This is a match with small steel silhouettes from about 800 yards up to 1200 yards with modern high power rifles and powerful scopes. Equipment costs are high just like ours are.

One thing I can think of is the mystery of black powder that keeps some shooters from trying it. Over on the ASSRA forum recently a shooter recently asked about black powder exploding from static, being left in the sun and from being dropped or hit with a hammer. Many shooters think it is so dirty that their guns need to be completely disassembled for a proper cleaning. They just don't know and are afraid of it. This is why we need to take a new shooter or several out and show them the ins and outs of black powder shooting. It's up to us to grow the sport. It is not going to happen by itself.
"Perfection consists not so much in doing extraordinary things as in doing ordinary things extraordinarily well"
John Bly
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Re: Raton Dates announcement

Post by John Bly »

I mistakenly said ASSRA forum and it was on the Cast Boolits forum.
"Perfection consists not so much in doing extraordinary things as in doing ordinary things extraordinarily well"
jackrabbit
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Re: Raton Dates announcement

Post by jackrabbit »

John Bly wrote: Many shooters think it is so dirty that their guns need to be completely disassembled for a proper cleaning. They just don't know and are afraid of it. This is why we need to take a new shooter or several out and show them the ins and outs of black powder shooting. It's up to us to grow the sport. It is not going to happen by itself.
That we can agree on my friend,
Cody
Ray Newman
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Re: Raton Dates announcement

Post by Ray Newman »

When I earlier posted that I agreed with John Bly’s post, it was based upon what I have observed at the local club -- approximately 2100 members.

From what I hear the club membership meetings, only 15-20 shooters shoot the BPCR silhouette course.

I shoot at the local club at least twice a week and 95% + of my shooting is with a BPCR and paper patched bullets. Over the 12 years that I have been a member, the only other BPCR shooters I have seen (a total of three; one is now deceased) are the two who already shoot the club’s NRA sanctioned BPCR silhouette course. They are there to check sight settings/ load. Other than that, I have not seen them practice. Now maybe they do when I am not there, but the range caretaker claims that is not the case. The muzzleloaders I see are smokeless in-line hunting rifles. As for any single shot rifle, it has been years since I saw one at the club.

A few shooters have talked to me about BPCR silhouette, but claim the reasons for not doing so are:

Equipment is too restrictive. Especially the Ruger No.1, H&R Buffalo classic, military surplus single shot bolt rifles such as the Mauser 71, or Winchester or Marlin lever rifles are not allowed.

Ammunition is too restrictive: they do not have the time to load Black Powder and cast bullet; have no desire to cast lead bullets; Black Powder is hard to find. If smokeless and jacketed bullets were allowed, they might try shooting the silhouette course.

The course of fire is just too slow and is/borders on boring. They want a venue where they can shoot rapidly and a great of rounds deal from a bolt gun and especially a semi-auto. The “under 40” shooters seemingly have a penchant for the semi-auto .223’s and 7.62mm’s. If they do not reload/have no time to reload, they purchase ammunition is 1000 and 2000+ round lots.

As for youth hunting in Washington:
“In Washington, there has been an 11 percent drop in state hunting license holders over the past 10 years. Even more worrying for state officials, youth hunting participation is down 22 percent. During that same decade, the state’s population grew 16 percent.
“Overall, only 3 percent of the state’s population hunts. Ten years ago, it was 4 percent.”
(https://www.yakimaherald.com/news/news_ ... 399fc.html)
Grand PooBah
WA ST F. E. S.

In real life may you be the bad ass that you claim to be on social media....
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