Raton Dates announcement

[Kurt]

Paul your a little wrong about the Q rule. There three unwritten rules but spoken. Be safe, load the rifle pointed down range on the sticks and have fun.

Kurt

[DeadEye]

Kurt,

Sure beats 56 pages though doesn't it? And they do start off with what I said and then add the safety rules of which you mention.

Paul

[BFD]

Well Brent you can speak with authority on how easy it is to blow up a rifle (I'm so glad you weren't seriously hurt).

Yes I can. But .30-06 have not much relevance to BPCR, so why drag that in here?

Paul, I won't count on seeing you either at the Nationals. You seem to only be interested in any powder is legal and there are no rules. Don't think either will happen. You seem pretty negative.

I'm going to have fun at the Nationals like everyone else that is there. Too bad, you will miss out. Shride is anything but a voice in the crowd.

[DeadEye]

Brent,

I dragged it in here for the same reason you did, to make a point.

And yes you will see me at the Nationals next year having fun just like you did this year. And if I'm lucky I'll have the privilege of sharing a table with you and Al again just like I did this year. Negative no, observant yes. You asked the question, I was only answering it. I have never in fourteen years loaded one shell with anything but Black so I have no idea where you got that idea.

At the matches I have attended with Jim Shride he has not been the Match Director so that makes him a voice in the crowd.

Paul

[BFD]

Okay Paul,
You win. This thread, like all the others, as been dragged down into the normal spiral of negativity.

Congratulations.

I'm done.

[DeadEye]

I get it now, if someone says something that you don't want to hear, even if it is the truth, that's being negative. For some reason that old Jack Nicolson line comes to mind, "You can't handle the truth." We were have a discussion which ended in a disagreement that's all. Nothing negative about that. See you in Raton.

Paul

[VectorMan]

Could it be that the attendance at the nationals started declining when these types of forums started? The open bickering back and forth has gotta have something to do with attendance.

Just saying.

My 2 cents is that you can’t please everyone. If you can go and shoot do so. Some people you can’t please at all. One person was complaining about the BPTR being too hot in the summer, then he said it interferes with hunting seasons in the fall, then it’s too early in June to have it. All that from the same person in the last 3 years. Geez lueeze!

[semtav]

BFD wrote
I don't care about rule changes here - start another thread please.

If there is nothing that can be done to get you to come to the Nationals, then you do not need to be part of this conversation. I'm looking for people that might come if some reasonable issue is reasonably met. I haven't seen anything that is going to help get more people to the 2019 match.

Dang in my excitement I guess I forgot to hit send on my reply to your post.
Probably just as well, as it was not very diplomatic. so this is my chance to start over I guess.

1. This is the very attitude I was talking about. You haven't been here, you aren't coming next year so STFU !!!!!!!!!!
Well, I hope it survives long enough that it will still be a venue if I retire in a few years. I'm not holding my breath on it tho.

2. delete

3. No my question about a simple rule change was not to allow "any safe powder". But you answered my question with that reply.

4. I don't believe this site is the cause of the decline in the the Nationals attendance as Vectorman alluded to. That's a short term issue. Just like little tweaks in the match. You're facing a long term issue and trying to talk a few more people into showing up won't be the answer. Its a long term issue that won't be properly addressed here.

So, since I'm not going to show up at Nationals until I retire or they move it to winter months, I'll move along. Have a great year !!

[semtav]

Okay Paul,
You win. This thread, like all the others, as been dragged down into the normal spiral of negativity.

Congratulations.

I'm done.

And go read your last post to me. that's why it got dragged down in the normal spiral of negativity. No one to blame there but you. We were having productive discussion until you got divisive as usual.

[Don McDowell]

Could it be that the attendance at the nationals started declining when these types of forums started? The open bickering back and forth has gotta have something to do with attendance.

Just saying.

My 2 cents is that you can’t please everyone. If you can go and shoot do so. Some people you can’t please at all. One person was complaining about the BPTR being too hot in the summer, then he said it interferes with hunting seasons in the fall, then it’s too early in June to have it. All that from the same person in the last 3 years. Geez lueeze!

No attendance did not fall because of internet forums. Attendance started falling off in 2008 mostly due to the economy. The stock market crash killed a lot of folks retirement funds. The sudden spike in gas prices made going to any matches a struggle for a lot of people, if possible at all. Matter of fact there are a number of folks that sold off their rifles and have disappeared from the shooting venues. Take a look at the numbers participating in High-power at Camp Perry, where they used to have over 1000 competitors, they are down to around 300 or so.

As you have yet to fire a target rifle match I will offer you a few observations.
Yes the October date did affect shooter turn out because of hunting season. I know of about 7 shooters, 4 of which are top contenders that did not come, because of scheduled hunts. There were two shooters that shoot the midrange position match only, that literally changed clothes on the firing line after the last relay and left to drive 500 miles to hunt an antelope area in Colorado that is a very hard draw. Another shooter that regularly shoots the entire match could only attend the Creedmoor due to having drawn a very covetted Colorado elk tag, and vacation days were at a premium.
As to July being a miserable time to shoot, you just haven't lived until you've laid out on the mat with the temperature at gun barrel level going well north of 130 degrees. Keep in mind that target rifle isn't shot under a cover like silhouette, and instead of being on the line for 15 minutes at a time like silhouette, you're out there for an hour or more. And unlike silhouette when you finish you're relay you don't go back to to the back of the cover and wait till your next relay, you either move your equipment back to the next yard line or go to the pits to pull targets.
I would suggest in all honesty you shoot a Creedmoor match before going to the Nationals, as shooting 8,9 and 1000 yards is a whole different world than shooting 500 meters in silhouette, and it's not uncommon even in midrange for loads that are sure ram killers to come thru the target at 600 either tipping badly if not leaving full side ways imprints in the target.

[SFogler]

Start with .22bpcr for 2 days, 2 days of silhouette, 2 days of midrange and then creedmoor. No breaks, no "practice days".

As someone who just went to the Creedmoor NRAWC match for the first time and loved it, and would go to more matches at NRAWC, this schedule would be a draw to me. As to rule changes, if that means not weighing the rifle, that's fine by me. But if is means allowing smokeless powder, then I would NOT go to any of the matches. I compete with BP with others who compete with BP. If I wanted to compete with smokeless shooters I'd get a 6.5 Creedmoor and shoot at high power matches. But I don't - I love BP competition. Shoot what you want at home or at Q, but the draw here is to shoot against the top BLACK POWDER competitors. If you feel you have to shoot smokeless then do it in another category like "Traditional Rifle" or "Vintage Sniper" or something that is distinct from BPTR.

[VectorMan]

No attendance did not fall because of internet forums. Attendance started falling off in 2008 mostly due to the economy. The stock market crash killed a lot of folks retirement funds. The sudden spike in gas prices made going to any matches a struggle for a lot of people, if possible at all. Matter of fact there are a number of folks that sold off their rifles and have disappeared from the shooting venues. Take a look at the numbers participating in High-power at Camp Perry, where they used to have over 1000 competitors, they are down to around 300 or so.

As you have yet to fire a target rifle match I will offer you a few observations.
Yes the October date did affect shooter turn out because of hunting season. I know of about 7 shooters, 4 of which are top contenders that did not come, because of scheduled hunts. There were two shooters that shoot the midrange position match only, that literally changed clothes on the firing line after the last relay and left to drive 500 miles to hunt an antelope area in Colorado that is a very hard draw. Another shooter that regularly shoots the entire match could only attend the Creedmoor due to having drawn a very covetted Colorado elk tag, and vacation days were at a premium.
As to July being a miserable time to shoot, you just haven't lived until you've laid out on the mat with the temperature at gun barrel level going well north of 130 degrees. Keep in mind that target rifle isn't shot under a cover like silhouette, and instead of being on the line for 15 minutes at a time like silhouette, you're out there for an hour or more. And unlike silhouette when you finish you're relay you don't go back to to the back of the cover and wait till your next relay, you either move your equipment back to the next yard line or go to the pits to pull targets.
I would suggest in all honesty you shoot a Creedmoor match before going to the Nationals, as shooting 8,9 and 1000 yards is a whole different world than shooting 500 meters in silhouette, and it's not uncommon even in midrange for loads that are sure ram killers to come thru the target at 600 either tipping badly if not leaving full side ways imprints in the target.

Don,
I realize that forums like this one wasn’t the reason for the drastic decline in numbers, it was meant as a tounge and cheek statement because of all the bitching that goes on and on about the nationals.
As for all the hunters, well it is the Nationals. Either go hunting or shoot the Nationals or do both as some did, just stop whining about it. And when I say whining, it’s when I hear it over and over and over. Say it once and forget about it.

As for your observations for me concerning target rifle, thanks.
I’ve been shooting various rifle competitions for over 20 years. I first started loading BPCR’s 20 years ago when no one in my area new what it even was. I’ve read countless books numerous times and still read them. I have every BPCR Silhouette Nationals result from day one in print and on my iPad, and almost all of the BPTR Nationals. I look at them almost every month. I love to read about these old guns and love to own and shoot them. My next books will be from Kenny W.

I know full well about the shooting in the heat. A lot of my earlier matches were out in the sun. The heat index with the humidity here in Missouri and Kansas is well into the triple digits every year throughout the summer and I also know that BPTR matches are out in the elements. The reason for me trying to shoot Creedmoor was that I was going to be there anyway for Silhouette and I always wanted to see them shoot the Creedmoor, my rifle is there, I’m there, WTF I’m shootings it! I know exactly how my rifle and load performs at 800, so that’s taken care of. That’s the farthest I can shoot on my range, so at 900 and 1000 it’s is a gamble. If I’m lucky I’ll take in a match beforehand, if not I’m shooting the Nationals anyway!

Now, don’t take this the wrong way, I truly mean no disrespect, your post above was very informative and I acknowledge that, however it came off kinda condescending. I doubt that was your intent, but that’s how it came off, and that definitely will turn off a Silhouette shooter from trying Creedmore for the first time depending on that individual. Which is exactly my point.
What would’ve been better and encouraging would have been:

Hey VectorMan, glad your trying the Creedmoor for the 1st time. Look me up when you get here and I’ll spot for your(as KW did for the BPCR irons). I’ll show you the ropes VM because we need more of you young guys in the sport or it will be gone, just like the midrange matches. Yea, VM I’ll take you out a buy you a steak dinner and even pay your entry fees.

Well, maybe I got a little carried away there. Anyway thanks for the advice and help on all the forums Don, if not for you seasoned trailblazers I’d still be shooting grease groove bullets like most of them square heads.

See you next summer, if I have time I’ll look you up.

[jackrabbit]

Now, don’t take this the wrong way, I truly mean no disrespect, your post above was very informative and I acknowledge that, however it came off kinda condescending.

I don't think Don's reply was anymore condescending than your post was insulting to whatever veteran target rifle guy you were referring to. It is very easy for people that have not shot target rifle to have opinions about it. I don't care how much you have shot whatever, there is only one way to experience a Creedmoor match, and that is to shoot it. I remember reading posts like these and scoffing at these old guys whining about it being too hot. As those that witness my raccoon sunburn can attest, I work outside everyday of the year from 110 to 40 below often on open cab equipment. When it is north of 100 degrees in the middle of the day with the sun beating down on you and your are sitting on a piece of equipment that is blowing hot engine heat back on you, I don't care who you are it is HOT! The truth is, now that I have shot a few BPTR matches, I am not sure it is worse than shooting a target rifle match on a hot day.
In my opinion, I am not sure there is anything more fun than shooting a BPTR match in decent conditions. I also find it absolutely miserable when the conditions are poor. The success of a BPTR match is truly dependent on the weather, more so than any other shooting discipline I think. So, as you can see, it is frustrating when the powers that be won't put the National match in a time frame that is conducive to good weather.

I will probably ruffle a few feathers, but I will say what needs said. The BPTR Nationals absolutey need to be in the month of September. Apparently that is not possible as the NRA refuses to hold it then.
take care, Cody

[VectorMan]

I never said "veteran target guy".

I never said it wasn't hot.

[Jeanne Ring]

I've held my tongue as long as I can.

The sporadic dates are not the fault of the NRA competitions division; rather, the NRAWC 's availability.

As far as the dwindling numbers, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. Recruitment begins at the local club level.

What are YOU doing to bring new shooters to the game?