45-2.6 to 40-90bn brass

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Kurt
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Re: 45-2.6 to 40-90bn brass

Post by Kurt »

Bob,
I don't see anymore fouling with all my bottle necked rifles ahead of the throat like I read some say either, but I don't have a .40 bn so I can't say what they do. The .44-77 and the .44-90 bn's are no problem with fouling or getting the accuracy compared to the straight cases.
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bobw
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Re: 45-2.6 to 40-90bn brass

Post by bobw »

I'll put several hundred rds through mine before I make any more statements on throat fouling in a 40-90 SBN. I've had my 40-70 2.1" BN for 20+ years and I'll say this. Yes, it will throat foul if you use 2 or 3Fg and greasers, you will get what you deserve for your stubbornness trying to load and shoot it like a straight wall case gun. Fg and lube wads and ppb's end of story period. bobw
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Michael Johnson

Re: 45-2.6 to 40-90bn brass

Post by Michael Johnson »

Would you order Shiloh’s standard chamber or would you ask for an Orville type chamber and leade for paper patch?
bobw
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Re: 45-2.6 to 40-90bn brass

Post by bobw »

Mike, It's real simple to me. I shoot Shiloh 74's with paper patched bullets. I use grease cookies ,aka lube wads just like the original Sharps , Winchester and UMC loads were loaded. The 40-90 2 5/8" was never designed to be a target cartridge. So I am using a .392" bullet wrapped twice with 9 lb onionskin that BACO sells for a .399" dia. bullet in a .400" bore and .408" groove barrel. I want to use it like they did 145 years ago in 1873. My chamber is Shiloh's tight reamer that gives you a OD fired neck dia. of .4225" and an inside dia. fired of .3995".I don't know if Orville had a hand in it's design but that would not surprise me. I am not the original owner of this gun but if I would have been I would have ordered the VERY same chamber. Once your brass is fireformed all you need to reload the case is to deprime it, clean it, dry it, reprime, charge, card wad and compression, lube wad with another card on top, seat the patched bullet with the fingers. Just like they did 145 years ago. No T-7 press, No inline seater no neck turning etc. Maybe accuracy could be enhanced some by a larger (.394"-.395" dia bullet ) wrapped with a thinner paper Seth Cole 55? and wiped after every shot. I don't know, that is not how I want the rifle to work for me. I WOULD NOT BUY A RIFLE IN 40-90 SBN TO SHOOT GREASERS IN OR ORDER IT WITH A STD CHAMBER TO SO. It has been said Sharps would do special orders for large quanities of ammo with non std bullet weights but if you look in Martin Rywell's book " The Sharps Rifle, the gun that shaped American Destiny" you will find that the std load was a 370 gr Paper patched bullet. If you order the same chamber as I have ,the chamber will not let you use a 40-90 SBN round with a .408-.409" gg bullets, they are too big to chamber. Believe this rifle will shoot fine and I am going to find out for sure my way. You have up to a 2 year wait for a rifle that give you time before it goes into production to change chambering and specs.??? bobw
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Michael Johnson

Re: 45-2.6 to 40-90bn brass

Post by Michael Johnson »

Bobw I think you misunderstood me. The plan all along has been a paper patch gun. Just wondering which chamber. I am shooting paper patch with my 45-2.6 that has the standard chamber. Thanks!
bobw
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Re: 45-2.6 to 40-90bn brass

Post by bobw »

I understood you loud and clear Mike. If you want the best from paper patched bullets you need to set yourself up from the get go to get them results. In the originals the 50-70 and 45-2.1 were chambered loose enough to chamber Gov't rds for interchangeability in the field on the frontier. Almost all the other cartridges in Sharps rifle were chambered for patch to bore paper patch bullets. Look at the records, there are damn few factory Sharps loads that featured "naked or ring ball bullets. If you want results replicating the originals you need to do things the same way. We all know that today's Shilohs and C Sharps rifles are capable of astounding accuracy with greasers and ppb's. The tight chamber will give you results even more parallel to the guns of old. " The farther you get away from the original loading instructions the less results you have " . These days there are some truly remarkable components and bullets for us to use in the brass that is the best ever offered. Some on this site will all ways spout out you need to get greasers results first then fool with ppb's. That is just dogma. tired dogma that is repeated way to many times from people who ought to know better. Best of luck to you and your decision. bobw
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Don McDowell
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Re: 45-2.6 to 40-90bn brass

Post by Don McDowell »

Mike my rifle has a standard chamber in it. Shoots patched just fine. Can't say what it would do with greasers as I've never shot any in it.
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Don McDowell
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Re: 45-2.6 to 40-90bn brass

Post by Don McDowell »

Clarence wrote: Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:52 am Don,

If you trim to 2.5" before forming, won't the finished brass be too short? The .40-90 BN has a 2.625" nominal length. If I were going to form the brass, I'd try doing it without first trimming.

It will definitely need to be annealed, as you said, and I'd run a .45 expander plug into it before forming. In forming .40-65 from .45-70 Starline, I've lost a few cases to neck collapse when I didn't make sure the neck was perfectly round before forming.

One other question: have you tried forming with the ..40-90 BN sizing die? Just curious about your experience and any problems you found.

Clarence
Clarence as you probably already know when you run a 45 case into a 40-65 size die, it grows in length. So doing that and then loading and fireforming, it fireforms and headspace the case on the shoulder. I suppose a person could leave a 2.6 case as is, and then go thru with the rest, but you might run the risk of pulling a neck off if it turned out to long for the chamber.
Yes you can just run the cases thru a size die, but you'll end up with more dimpled shoulders and other abnormalities by doing that than sizing to 40 and fireforming.
Even the BACO cases which in the end are the quickest easiest way to go will expand after the first firing, and require another 4 grains of 1f in subsequent firings to keep the fouling down to a manageable level.
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Clarence
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Re: 45-2.6 to 40-90bn brass

Post by Clarence »

Don,

I'd certainly trim the cases after forming and before loading. I'd never fire an over-length case.

My question was only really whether you see a full 0.100" length increase when you form the brass. When I form .40-65 cases from .45=70 Starline brass, they grow by 0.030-0.035". Works out very well for Browning and custom chambers that require 2.120-2.130" brass.

I understand the concern about dimpling. I've found that the lube must be minimal, and I still get occasional slight dimpling. With the spray lube, I run my fingers over each case before running the case into the sizing die. As long as my fingers feel slightly slippery, I can generally avoid dimpling. Slight dimples generally disappear with firing.

I see your point for the way you do the initial sizing. I just hate to waste a firing; with the cartridges I've formed, generally only a grain or so adjustment to the load is required after the first firing. I've shot some pretty good matches while fire-forming brass.

Clarence
bobw
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Re: 45-2.6 to 40-90bn brass

Post by bobw »

The 45-2.6" Starline converted by BACO to 40-90 SBN grows from 2.6 to 2.62" in the batch I got with my gun. There is no evidence that Dave's crew ever trimmed it at all and yeah every once in awhile you'll see some dents on the shoulder or neck area of the formed brass. All I've done with it is to lightly lube it and run it thru the full length sizer and load it up, then squeeze the neck down prior to seating the ppb. It is a lot easier than wrassling .408 wads in a .400 hole. Once I fired these rds the cases were at 2.622" only .003" off the theoretical chamber end. Put a VLD chamfer on the inside and good to go. There is all ways more than one way to get it done. bobw
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Skywagon
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Re: 45-2.6 to 40-90bn brass

Post by Skywagon »

I believe that I am done with the 40-90bn. I have 100plus pieces of brass and a set of RCBS dies. Make me an offer. I won’t say no. :D
Gerry
Michael Johnson

Re: 45-2.6 to 40-90bn brass

Post by Michael Johnson »

I sure appreciate all of the suggestions from all of you. Basically this rifle will be a business rifle configuration with a heavy 28 inch round barrel with the tight paper patch chamber. It will have standard wood. Probably go with the 1/16 twist that my 40-65 has (it is a hiwall). I need the challenge of trying something a little different. Now I am on the hunt for cases, I may go the 45-2.6 route if Jameson fails to re-invent itself. Again, thanks for all of the input. I have enough reloading experience to make this successful.
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Don McDowell
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Re: 45-2.6 to 40-90bn brass

Post by Don McDowell »

Michael, you'll have to go with the 2.6 route. Jamison didn't produce any thing that would work very well to form 40-90's from. But from the experience I have with forming and making cases etc, you'll save a lot of headache by just going the preformed cases from BACO, altho you'll end up doing load work up after they are fire formed to you chamber.
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