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Original 44-77 loadings
Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:13 am
by firefighter1990
What was the original loading for the 44 2-1/4" bottleneck? I know it was first 70 grains, then 75, and lastly 77 with 385 and 405 grain bullets but was it all paper patch or were they grease groove?
Re: Original 44-77 loadings
Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:34 am
by Don McDowell
According to the 1877 catalog, the 44 2 1/4 was loaded with 75 grs of powder, with either a 297 gr grooved bullet or a 380 or 405 gr patched bullet.
Re: Original 44-77 loadings
Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:38 am
by firefighter1990
OK, so the heavy hitters were ppb's correct? I traded into an original #1 roller in 44 ctge S that I'm bringing back to life with original loads.
Re: Original 44-77 loadings
Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:44 am
by Don McDowell
Remington pretty much ran 77 grains, with a 400 grain patched bullet.
You'll want to get a good bore measurement on that rifle, as they were sort of all over the place. Friend of mine got one of those with a heavy barrel, and it has a .451 groove diameter. He had a bugger of a time getting cases with a thin enough rim, but finally got the cases from BACO and things started looking up.
Re: Original 44-77 loadings
Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:52 am
by firefighter1990
OK thanks! Yup I slugged it, measured the twist and bought a few cases. Had to thin the rims down on my brass as well. Bore is a bit frosty but I think it'll do ok.
Re: Original 44-77 loadings
Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:58 am
by Don McDowell
Well sounds like it's time to get a mould to throw a bullet .002-004 under bore diameter, 1.1 inches long, wrap it in 8 lb paper and go have a good time.
Re: Original 44-77 loadings
Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:01 am
by Orville
The original lubed bullet was a hollow point meant to accept a 22 caliber blank to get and explosive bullet.
Re: Original 44-77 loadings
Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:14 pm
by pete
Pg 337 of Sellers' Sharps book states that "express" bullets were hollow points with a 22 long inserted which in the case of 44 cal. that would be a 277 gr. bullet. On pg. 339 he states there were also 297,312 and 405 gr. grooved bullets. So not all the grooved bullets were the weird explosive kind.
Re: Original 44-77 loadings
Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:21 am
by bobw
firefighter1990 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:38 am
OK, so the heavy hitters were ppb's correct? I traded into an original #1 roller in 44 ctge S that I'm bringing back to life with original loads.
You need a chamber cast before you get any further. The last roller( Creedmoor) I played with was stamped 44 S and it was the 44-90 2 7/16" BN " Special not 44-2 1/4". Do what you like but I'd sure do the cast first ,might save you a bunch of money and time. bobw
Re: Original 44-77 loadings
Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:25 am
by firefighter1990
Yup I did that along with slugging the bore and measuring the twist. The bore in this one is more along the lines of a 43 Spanish than the large. 451" I've read about with others who have old Remington's. I shot it this weekend with some Lyman 439186 and some .431" slicks wrapped to .438" for a Shiloh barrel. The ppbs were a bit long but went down the bore beautifully. No paper rings, no lead, good confetti. The 439" Spanish gg bullet did very well. Certainly this old ghost can still shoot so long as bullets at kept in the 1"-1.1" oal.
My barrel is marked "44 ctge S" and the bore measures .433/.438 as best as I can tell with the odd 5 grooves. The neck of the chamber is a bit tight and I don't think I'd be able to fit a bullet much fatter than .440" with my Jamison brass.
Re: Original 44-77 loadings
Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:32 pm
by Yellowhouse
firefighter1990 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:25 am
Yup I did that along with slugging the bore and measuring the twist. The bore in this one is more along the lines of a 43 Spanish than the large. 451" I've read about with others who have old Remington's. I shot it this weekend with some Lyman 439186 and some .431" slicks wrapped to .438" for a Shiloh barrel. The ppbs were a bit long but went down the bore beautifully. No paper rings, no lead, good confetti. The 439" Spanish gg bullet did very well. Certainly this old ghost can still shoot so long as bullets at kept in the 1"-1.1" oal.
My barrel is marked "44 ctge S" and the bore measures .433/.438 as best as I can tell with the odd 5 grooves. The neck of the chamber is a bit tight and I don't think I'd be able to fit a bullet much fatter than .440" with my Jamison brass.
Thats a really tight bore for a Remington marked 44 but not unheard of. My own sporter is more in the .440 bore and 451ish groove which is what its supposed to be. Its also marked 44 Ctge S. Remember that they used bore size to designate caliber up till about the time UMC entered the picture. Thats also why your 44 army is actually a 45 by todays standards.
Rotate the slug in the jaws of your caliper and it the largest reading will give you the best estimate of groove diameter. But for paper patch bore diameter is all thats relevant.
These old timers were designed for PPB, not greasers, and have tight chambers and large (by modern standards) bores. They do it beautifully! I think you're on the right track and suggest you stick with PPB.
Re: Original 44-77 loadings
Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:18 pm
by J.B.
[quote=firefighter1990 post_id=301592 time=1549905945 user_id=240295]
Yup I did that along with slugging the bore and measuring the twist.
.. So what was the twist rate when you measured it ? I understand the Sharps ran a 1/20" back in the day and just curious to see if Remington ran a different twist in their rollers.
rgds.. J.B.
Re: Original 44-77 loadings
Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:31 pm
by firefighter1990
It has rather shallow rifling and the frosty bore makes it a bit rough for my Dewey rod to follow it perfectly but I came up with 1:24" on multiple attempts.
My rifle has a long as shallow transition in what we call the "throat" these days but it more resembles a forcing cone on a revolver than anything. Looks smooth for ppb's though. Does your rifle have something similar in nature?
I wonder if Remington used their 44 and 43 barrels interchangeably. What little research I've read up on appears that the barrels for 43 Spanish and 44 Ballard longs were close in dimensions and twist.
Re: Original 44-77 loadings
Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:30 pm
by Yellowhouse
Been so long I forgot but 1-24 twist sounds right but don't hold me to that. I've got that in a notebook...somewheres!
Yes, what you're seeing is the long leade for PPB. There is no chamber step as per greaser/jacketed chambers seen in most modern rifles.
43 Spanish is very close but from what I've seen Remington sporters run about .440-2 bore and .451 groove. Some even to .456 but they will still shoot.
I don't know what the long range Creedmoor rifles specked out at...they may be more uniform.