PP bullet for SMLE .3143 groove diameter

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mdeland
Posts: 11708
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:47 pm

PP bullet for SMLE .3143 groove diameter

Post by mdeland »

I getting ready to cut a mold cavity for a PP bullet in a new SMLE I acquired recently. Been wanting to do this for some time for another SMLE I have and am wanting to know what the originals were sized and shaped like. I'm using cooking parchment that is a pretty consistent .002 thick for patching.
I slugged the bore and measured with my Powelly gauge a groove diameter of .3143.
If I can't find an original design to get measurements from I guess I'll try a parallel side bullet that drops a might over .308. With two wraps that should bring it up to bore diameter.
Later I'll cut a GG bullet mold for it as well. Be fun to use in our offhand Clang and bang matches me thinks.
This was a neat deal as the rifle was a gift from a friend that doesn't shoot any more and was trying to clean out his basement. The bore is clean and bright with a standard 5 groove military barrel. It's a #1 Mk III that has been nicely sporterized but still wearing the original sights without the ear guards.
I don't know why I like these old military rifles shooting lead bullets but they are interesting and many are surprisingly accurate with the lead pills.
The .303 I'm told originally started life with PP bullets so wanted to give them a try.
mdeland
Posts: 11708
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:47 pm

Re: PP bullet for SMLE .3143 groove diameter

Post by mdeland »

I forgot to mention the bore diameter measured a snug .303 so if one patches to bore diameter I guess I need to make the bullet drop at .295 with two wraps of the .002 parchment paper. I don't know if the originals were patched to groove or bore diameter.
bruce m
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Location: australia

Re: PP bullet for SMLE .3143 groove diameter

Post by bruce m »

mike,
the original 303 black powder load used a jacketed bullet.
if you can find a picture of the mkVI bullet you will go close.
it is basically a metford design.
patching to groove might suit your gun if it has any freebore.
in fact patch to freebore would be best.
bruce.
ventum est amicus meus
bobw
Posts: 3841
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2004 12:52 pm

Re: PP bullet for SMLE .3143 groove diameter

Post by bobw »

TheNRA put out a cast bullet publication many years a go written by Col E H Harrison (ret) that was a collection of how to do articles and years of American Rifleman question and answers. There was several articles and questions in there that extensively explored ppb use in 30 cal rifles with molds made by Ideal and Lyman. Seems like .300 was the dia of those molds and they were patching to groove with smokeless powder. See if you can find a copy of that. bobw
bobw
mdeland
Posts: 11708
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:47 pm

Re: PP bullet for SMLE .3143 groove diameter

Post by mdeland »

Thanks guys, I have the publication but didn't remember anything on SMLE bullets. I'll get her out and take a look. Thanks also for the tip on patching to groove on the .303, I was all set to cut the bullet to patch on the bore. I'll post back when I get a chance to try the new bullet out.
These gun all do seem to have quite a long tapered throat come to think on it.
mdeland
Posts: 11708
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:47 pm

Re: PP bullet for SMLE .3143 groove diameter

Post by mdeland »

I'm wondering how wide I should make the patch template for a starting position. I think I remember Brent successfully using fairly short patches on his bullets compared to others I've seen.
beltfed
Posts: 1962
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2007 10:07 am
Location: Central Wi

Re: PP bullet for SMLE .3143 groove diameter

Post by beltfed »

Mike,
I have both of the original Lyman 30 cal PP molds: 301618 and 301620- 160 gr and 200 gr respectively
as developed by Harrison and Harris in late 60s.
Shot them some, according to the Harrison tutorials in TAR and in the NRA Cast Bullet handbook.
I will be working with them again for my .03 M1941 MC Sniper Rifle now that I am back to shooting it
in CBA Vintage Military rifle competition.
I may even try them with the M1941 in CMP Vintage Sniper rifle matches( 300/600yds) at my club this summer.
Now, I suggest you simply scale up these Harrison designs to bore diameter of your SMLE plus maybe 0.001-0.002"
such that they patch and then size to freebore diameter. Include the shallow grooving as Harrison determined that
they helped consistency/accuracy. And you set the patch leading edge into one of the grooves as you wrap the bullets.

Neck size your cases with a stepped expansion plug so you
have the bullets seat w/o patch damage and have a couple thou of neck tension
The length of the patch on the bullet is determined by the length of freebore plus neck length
plus enough length so you can twist the "tail" of wet patch snugly to base of bullet. After drying you cut off
most of the tail with a Sharp side cutters.
A quality 25% cotton bond 20#/ream paper is suggested if you cannot get 100% cotton bond.
beltfed/arnie
beltfed
Posts: 1962
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2007 10:07 am
Location: Central Wi

Re: PP bullet for SMLE .3143 groove diameter

Post by beltfed »

MIke,
I know you are looking at cutting your own mold, but
FWIW, NOE lists their rendition of the lyman 301620 mold in a "303620" size.
its the NOE 303-218-SP. Out of stock just now, but they do also have a drawing
with dimensions that could help you for cutting your own mold.
beltfed/arnie
mdeland
Posts: 11708
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:47 pm

Re: PP bullet for SMLE .3143 groove diameter

Post by mdeland »

Thanks Arnie. helpful information I'll put on my wall with stuff I don't want to loose or forget. That's where I Sharpy in good data notes. "Really" :lol:
I kind of want to see if I can get the shrinkage rates correct on my lead/tin/ Antimony alloy so will go ahead and try a bullet cavity and see what the drop diameter is. The barrel groove slugs at .3143 measured with my Powelly gauge and the cooking parchment patch paper is .002 so two wraps will give me .008 diameter increase which makes the bullet diameter needing to be .3063 if I got this right. Looks like my alloy should shrink a bit over .001 in this caliber so the mold diameter needs to be about .3075 or there about is my best guess.
Should be an interesting experiment.
bobw
Posts: 3841
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2004 12:52 pm

Re: PP bullet for SMLE .3143 groove diameter

Post by bobw »

Mdeland, I reread the article beltfed was talking about. Those molds threw a .301 dia bullet. Why don't you cut some patches that will wrap twice around a .308-9" greaser out of 9Lb onionskin or parchment paper and give it a try. If the paper is to thick maybe try some Seth Cole that the BACO ppb mold users like.. Harrison talked about wrapping greasers with gas checks and running up to 24-2600 fps. good luck. bobw
bobw
mdeland
Posts: 11708
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:47 pm

Re: PP bullet for SMLE .3143 groove diameter

Post by mdeland »

Yeah, I had that very idea last week. I pulled out some of my 291 30 caliber gas check bullets and put a patch on one or two but they looked so funky I decided to make a PP bullet with no grooves. Cut the first mold last night but for some reason, I haven't figured out yet, my bullets drop .003 bigger than I calculated they would at .310. Scratching my head on this deal. Could be my shrinkage rate calculations are wrong not knowing the specific make up of counter weight alloy I have on hand.
I will tool post grind the reamer down .003 and try again. It cut a really smooth cavity though and is an interesting experiment.
mdeland
Posts: 11708
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:47 pm

Re: PP bullet for SMLE .3143 groove diameter

Post by mdeland »

The bullet in the middle is the first cavity cut that is a bit large at .310, for paper patching to this groove diameter. The bullet on the left has a diameter of .312 and the one on the right is the standard Lyman 291 at about .308 diameter.
Image
I'll show a picture of the new bullet after the reamer grind down with the tool post grinder last evening if it turns out in another mold blank I have.
mdeland
Posts: 11708
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:47 pm

Re: PP bullet for SMLE .3143 groove diameter

Post by mdeland »

Also the first bullet try is over 200 grains and I'll make the next one a bit shorter as I think I'm at the outer limits of weight/length that the SMLE rifling pitch will handle.
The nose is a hemisphere.
mdeland
Posts: 11708
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:47 pm

Re: PP bullet for SMLE .3143 groove diameter

Post by mdeland »

Cut the new mold tonight after tool post grinding the reamer. Got the base just right for a two wrap fit using the parchment paper. Mic's just a hair over .314.5 and fits the case neck correctly. Put a taper on the nose ogive and will give her a try. May want to lap the nose a bit bigger to make it ride the bore diameter better but will see if it will work this way first. Shortened the new bullet a bit and will weight it tomorrow. Looks like it should go about 170- 180 grains would be my guess.
I patched and loaded one to the base of the case neck. The one next to the cartridge is the new slug.
Image
Woody
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Re: PP bullet for SMLE .3143 groove diameter

Post by Woody »

That's a new/old look for the 303. Neat!

Woody
Richard A. Wood
If you are surrounded. You are in a target rich environment.
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