Leading
- DAVE ROELLE
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Re: Leading
Hmmmmmmm interesting dilemma, Dave Higgenbotham shot a lot of smokless in a variety of calibers, wish he was still with us his insight is missed
I live about 2 miles from Daves old shop and knew him well, i have two of his rifles one 40-65 and a 45-70
Lets see what the barrel dimensions are when you slug it, leading at the chamber is almost always a poor fit condition.
My 45-70 roller has a Green Mountain barrel with deeper than normal grooves, it can lead a bit with blackpowder loads
Perhaps i missed it but you do shoot these rifles with black powder loads successfully ?
Dave
I live about 2 miles from Daves old shop and knew him well, i have two of his rifles one 40-65 and a 45-70
Lets see what the barrel dimensions are when you slug it, leading at the chamber is almost always a poor fit condition.
My 45-70 roller has a Green Mountain barrel with deeper than normal grooves, it can lead a bit with blackpowder loads
Perhaps i missed it but you do shoot these rifles with black powder loads successfully ?
Dave
your never lost, if ya don't care where ya are
- DAVE ROELLE
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Re: Leading
One thing i forgot
Dave favored a long lead ahead of the chamber, a chamber cast or a pound cast will identify that
You may need to seat the bullets farther out of the case to fill the lead
I re-read your opening statement and see you successfully shoot black powder loads with other bullets
Have you tried the Penn bullet with black powder ?
Dave favored a long lead ahead of the chamber, a chamber cast or a pound cast will identify that
You may need to seat the bullets farther out of the case to fill the lead
I re-read your opening statement and see you successfully shoot black powder loads with other bullets
Have you tried the Penn bullet with black powder ?
your never lost, if ya don't care where ya are
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Re: Leading
A couple of thoughts, based on shooting various .45-70, .45=90, and .40-65 Shiloh rifles for over 30 years.
First, I've always had the best results with the bullets touching or slightly into the lands. With normal Shiloh chambers, that has meant (for .45-70) the front of the front driving band ~2.155"-2.175" from the base of the case, depending on bullet diameter (smaller diameters can be seated further out). That means that you will see most of the front driving band outside the case, but not see the first grease groove. I generally load so the final seating (last 0.101-0.020") is done by the breach block.
You indicated you were seating the fit driving band completely inside the case. That would result in ~0.060-0.080" jump for the bullet. That could conceivably encourage some leading. I'd work to find why you couldn't seat the bullet out further.
5744 is a relatively fast powder. I've loaded quite a bit of it in .45-70, and always done two things: bullets seated into the lands, as explained above, and a firm crimp. Both are to encourage good, consistent ignition. So done, my results were generally almost as good as with black powder loads.
With the Money bullets, generally in .40-65, I dip-lube and leave the extra lube on the front of the bullet. I load them so at least two of the reduced grooves were well-engraved, and wipe after each shot. Bullets seat easily in the chamber, as long as the wiping is effective, with final seating as described above. No leading.
When I obtained a Money bullet for the .45-70, I loaded the same way, except I wiped the lube off the front of the bullet (1:16 alloy). I experienced significant leading. To salvage the bullets (and the match at Raton), I smeared SPG on the front of the bullets, and the leading no longer occurred. So, with Money bullets, I have messy-looking bullets, but no leading.
So, try getting the bullets seated out so they touch or slightly engage the rifling and try crimping with 5744.
Hope you get to the root of your problem soon.
Clarence
First, I've always had the best results with the bullets touching or slightly into the lands. With normal Shiloh chambers, that has meant (for .45-70) the front of the front driving band ~2.155"-2.175" from the base of the case, depending on bullet diameter (smaller diameters can be seated further out). That means that you will see most of the front driving band outside the case, but not see the first grease groove. I generally load so the final seating (last 0.101-0.020") is done by the breach block.
You indicated you were seating the fit driving band completely inside the case. That would result in ~0.060-0.080" jump for the bullet. That could conceivably encourage some leading. I'd work to find why you couldn't seat the bullet out further.
5744 is a relatively fast powder. I've loaded quite a bit of it in .45-70, and always done two things: bullets seated into the lands, as explained above, and a firm crimp. Both are to encourage good, consistent ignition. So done, my results were generally almost as good as with black powder loads.
With the Money bullets, generally in .40-65, I dip-lube and leave the extra lube on the front of the bullet. I load them so at least two of the reduced grooves were well-engraved, and wipe after each shot. Bullets seat easily in the chamber, as long as the wiping is effective, with final seating as described above. No leading.
When I obtained a Money bullet for the .45-70, I loaded the same way, except I wiped the lube off the front of the bullet (1:16 alloy). I experienced significant leading. To salvage the bullets (and the match at Raton), I smeared SPG on the front of the bullets, and the leading no longer occurred. So, with Money bullets, I have messy-looking bullets, but no leading.
So, try getting the bullets seated out so they touch or slightly engage the rifling and try crimping with 5744.
Hope you get to the root of your problem soon.
Clarence
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Re: Leading
Thanks Clarence and everyone for your suggestions. I definitely have some stuff to chew on.
I mentioned in the original post that the bullet was seated about 1/10" deeper than the money bullets I shoot in the Shilohs. If there is a long lead, coupled with deeper bullet seating, that is considered to be a cause of leading? The thought crossed my mind earlier as I seem to have read or heard somewhere that it does. I will attempt to load my next batch out some and see if that helps.
Thanks again for all of your help. I will take what you have told me to heart and go to work trying to better the situation.
I mentioned in the original post that the bullet was seated about 1/10" deeper than the money bullets I shoot in the Shilohs. If there is a long lead, coupled with deeper bullet seating, that is considered to be a cause of leading? The thought crossed my mind earlier as I seem to have read or heard somewhere that it does. I will attempt to load my next batch out some and see if that helps.
Thanks again for all of your help. I will take what you have told me to heart and go to work trying to better the situation.
- DAVE ROELLE
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Re: Leading
Looking forward to hearing how things go,
Clarence has it, by loading to the lands you will fill the throat
Dave
Clarence has it, by loading to the lands you will fill the throat
Dave
your never lost, if ya don't care where ya are
- DAVE ROELLE
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Re: Leading
Its a bit trickier to load a roller with the bullet "into" the lands. Just barely touching works for me in my rollers
You only have finger force to completely chamber the cartridge in a roller
You only have finger force to completely chamber the cartridge in a roller
your never lost, if ya don't care where ya are
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Re: Leading
Right now the cartridge just falls in. That includes the 535 gr bp loads with the money bullet.
Dave Higginbotham and I had several discussions during the time he was doing the work but none of them were about leade or bullet seating. I now wish that I had asked.
One more question. Moving the bullet out to the bottom of the driving band will add another 1/10" in length to the cartridge, then I hit the first grease groove (there are only three on this bullet). I think it was dropped from a Saeco mould, 1881 perhaps. Any idea how far out I can safely seat the bullet and still get sufficient lubrication, or is that much of a factor here?
Dave Higginbotham and I had several discussions during the time he was doing the work but none of them were about leade or bullet seating. I now wish that I had asked.
One more question. Moving the bullet out to the bottom of the driving band will add another 1/10" in length to the cartridge, then I hit the first grease groove (there are only three on this bullet). I think it was dropped from a Saeco mould, 1881 perhaps. Any idea how far out I can safely seat the bullet and still get sufficient lubrication, or is that much of a factor here?
- Lumpy Grits
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Re: Leading
Move the bullet out to just expose the front band.
How easy does it chamber now?
LG
How easy does it chamber now?
LG
"Hav'n you along, is like loose'n two good men"
- DAVE ROELLE
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Re: Leading
As Clarence indicated, move the bullet out of the case, deeper into the barrel until it just touches the lands in the throat.
Exposed grease grooves are of no consequence and being exposed it actually lubricates better at ignition
Im assuming these are primarily target rounds and so can be protected untill used.
Many folks shoot bullets with reduced first and sometimes 2nd bands to better allign the bullet in the bore and gain powder volumn
Dave
Exposed grease grooves are of no consequence and being exposed it actually lubricates better at ignition
Im assuming these are primarily target rounds and so can be protected untill used.
Many folks shoot bullets with reduced first and sometimes 2nd bands to better allign the bullet in the bore and gain powder volumn
Dave
your never lost, if ya don't care where ya are
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Re: Leading
I agree with Dave on the Rollers-just touching the lands is best with them.
Short-cut to get the right seating depth without all sorts of iterations:
1. Drop a bullet into the chamber and use a dowel or eraser end of a pencil to make sure it touches the lands; measure the distance from the breech face to the base of the bullet, using a caliper; do the calculations to get the right overall length (I use the distance from cartridge base to front of the front driving band for all conventional bullets, only using OAL with Money bullets).
2. Do the additional calculations to determine the correct measurement for the top of the wad when the powder is compressed.
3. Then you can start with zero compression and load up some cartridges with 2 grain increments going up from no compression to perhaps 0.200" (you pick). Now all you need to do is to vary the measurements to get slight compression that you can do with your finger or the action of the Sharps, Highwall, or most rifles other than the Rollers. (I use a Saeco competition sizer, which permits 0.001" movements, and a Meacham compression die (in-line seater with a different stem) that does the same.)
For the Money bullets with reduced diameter front grooves, it is possible to engrave the first 3 grooves with minimal thumb seating pressure. That will make cartridges loaded with Money bullets quite a bit longer that loads with a conventional bullet (depending on the nose profiles, of course). My experience with Money bullets is that they work best when seated out fare enough to engrave 3 bands as much as does not require excessive pressure to seat, and then push them hard. I generally get around 100 fps more velocity with Money bullets than similar conventional designs, doing so by increasing compression until the groups tighten up to meet your accuracy expectations (I shoot for less than 1 MOA vertical in my groups at 275 yards (the most I have here).
As you might guess, keeping good records is absolutely critical. All measurements to 0.001" so that you can replicate previous loads that worked well.
Clarence
Short-cut to get the right seating depth without all sorts of iterations:
1. Drop a bullet into the chamber and use a dowel or eraser end of a pencil to make sure it touches the lands; measure the distance from the breech face to the base of the bullet, using a caliper; do the calculations to get the right overall length (I use the distance from cartridge base to front of the front driving band for all conventional bullets, only using OAL with Money bullets).
2. Do the additional calculations to determine the correct measurement for the top of the wad when the powder is compressed.
3. Then you can start with zero compression and load up some cartridges with 2 grain increments going up from no compression to perhaps 0.200" (you pick). Now all you need to do is to vary the measurements to get slight compression that you can do with your finger or the action of the Sharps, Highwall, or most rifles other than the Rollers. (I use a Saeco competition sizer, which permits 0.001" movements, and a Meacham compression die (in-line seater with a different stem) that does the same.)
For the Money bullets with reduced diameter front grooves, it is possible to engrave the first 3 grooves with minimal thumb seating pressure. That will make cartridges loaded with Money bullets quite a bit longer that loads with a conventional bullet (depending on the nose profiles, of course). My experience with Money bullets is that they work best when seated out fare enough to engrave 3 bands as much as does not require excessive pressure to seat, and then push them hard. I generally get around 100 fps more velocity with Money bullets than similar conventional designs, doing so by increasing compression until the groups tighten up to meet your accuracy expectations (I shoot for less than 1 MOA vertical in my groups at 275 yards (the most I have here).
As you might guess, keeping good records is absolutely critical. All measurements to 0.001" so that you can replicate previous loads that worked well.
Clarence
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Re: Leading
Not sure how to edit my earlier post, so please make this correction>
Under Item 3, one of the sentences read "vary the measurements to get slight compression ". That should have read "vary the measurements to get slight engraving". Sorry for the confusing wording.
Clarence
Under Item 3, one of the sentences read "vary the measurements to get slight compression ". That should have read "vary the measurements to get slight engraving". Sorry for the confusing wording.
Clarence
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Re: Leading
Thanks Clarence...
I will make a note.
I will make a note.
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Re: Leading
macrob,
if your bullets are loose in a fired case, you are looking at leading with smokeless.
ideally a firm slip fit is good in fired cases.
if you have a freebore chamber and your bullet is of less diameter than the freebore, the same.
even with black powder, filling any space with alloy is the safest way to avoid leading, but mandatory for smokeless, due to less bumping up with the slower pressure curve of smokeless.
possibly use of wads that can seal the gas might help, but this will let undersize bullets potentially start a bit crooked thus affecting accuracy.
bruce.
if your bullets are loose in a fired case, you are looking at leading with smokeless.
ideally a firm slip fit is good in fired cases.
if you have a freebore chamber and your bullet is of less diameter than the freebore, the same.
even with black powder, filling any space with alloy is the safest way to avoid leading, but mandatory for smokeless, due to less bumping up with the slower pressure curve of smokeless.
possibly use of wads that can seal the gas might help, but this will let undersize bullets potentially start a bit crooked thus affecting accuracy.
bruce.
ventum est amicus meus
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Re: Leading
Thanks Bruce but I have to decline your idea about wads, unless you are talking bp. Wads are a no-no with smokeless. Risk of detonation in the chamber.
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