40-50BN and 40-70SS

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BML
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Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:20 am

40-50BN and 40-70SS

Post by BML »

Hello,

I have combed through what I believe to be just about every post or article on these cartridges on this and other forums. Most of them are somewhat old, so I wanted to make a post and get some more recent and updated information. I have a rifle on order with Shiloh and am still throwing around what to have it chambered in. I want to eventually get into silhouette and some midrange matches, but most likely just plinking and having fun for the time being. I would really p, really prefer to paper patch. Those 6-day work weeks really cut into my fun time.....

Specifically I want to know about:

40-50BN
- I know several are using this cartridge with a PPB, and want to know if any of you have tried this at silhouettes and if you have found it to be adequate to knock down the rams?
- With a PPB seated minimally into the case, say 1/8” or so, is there enough case capacity to move heavier bullets in the 400-420gr range to adequate velocities?
- I know the twist rate is an important consideration as well, to stabilize this weigh bullet in 40cal. Has anyone tried a 14 or 14.5 twist in this chambering, or is that just trying to get this little cartridge to do something it was never meant to do? I have read that with a PPB this case can hold the same amount of powder as a GG 40-65, and have seen many recommend a 14 or 14.5 twist in the 40-65...I guess you can see where my thought process is going.

40-70SS
- There has been a lot of negative and positive things written about this one in the past. I am interested in getting specific feed back on folks experience paper patching for this cartridge and how difficult and/or straight forward it was for them. I know every rifle will be different, it just seems like most of what I could find was in reference to GG loading.
- I am also interested in hearing from folks who have this chambering with a 14 or 14.5 twist and their experiences with that and something along the lines of a BACO Elliptical 420gr PPB

Obviously the answer to all of this is to get a 40-65 or a 45-70. I am a history nerd, and for those of us who are, know how hard it is to think about having a Sharps chambered in a non-original chambering. I think sometimes the answer is keeping historical and “modern target” guns separate. I’ll eventually get my Hartford in 44-77 or 50-70 for my “historical fix”. The gentleman who has really helped me get into BPCR has two 40-65s, so that is what I have shot up to this point. I love the low recoil and that is why I am a little hesitant to go with the 45-70. Honestly, I am really liking the idea of the 40-50BN for its recoil, or lack there of, its ease of loading and finding accurate loads, and it’s historical nature. In a 12lb silhouette rifle, it seems like it would essentially be a 40cal 22LR. I am just worried it won’t have the oomph needed to take down rams on the occasion that I can make it to a silhouette match.

Anyways....thank you guys in advance for any updated information on these two chambering or advice.


BML
art ruggiero
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Re: 40-50BN and 40-70SS

Post by art ruggiero »

john blys son shot a 40/50 straight with great success at sil. very similar case capacity and load as the bottle neck. i have a 40/50 shiloh straight and it shoots very well but i haven't shot it past 300 art
pacecars
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Re: 40-50BN and 40-70SS

Post by pacecars »

I can’t help you silhouette wise since I only used my .40-50 SBN for hunting but recoil is almost non existent with a 285 gr grease groove bullet in a 27 inch standard 1/2 round barreled Saddle Rifle. Accuracy was excellent.
Real gun powder is black.
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kenny s
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Location: Venice FL

Re: 40-50BN and 40-70SS

Post by kenny s »

IMG_2964 (2).JPG
40 70 SS Shiloh 74
JBA cases, or 30 40 Craig from BA
67 grains of 2f or( 1 1/2 OE), bullet and charges each weighed ....drop tube 24 inches, 1/8 compression with die
PP 418 grain cast 1 in 20 using BA 9 pound wrapped wet.
one wad, plastic or veggie, or even two. no lube
hand set in fired cases with slight factory crimp to hold bullet.
CCI large rifle reg primer
one wet one dry between shots


ez to load, shoots great. and looks like the old west bullet it is...

1 1/2 inch groups are possible if you do your thing.
I found the wood bench rest works better. allows the rifle to recoil freely I think. a solid rest did not work as well.
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John Bly
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Re: 40-50BN and 40-70SS

Post by John Bly »

As Art pointed out my son shot a 40-50 Straight for about 5 years. He shot a Brooks Creedmoor bullet at the rams weighing 418 grains propelled by 47 grains of Swiss 3F in Krag cases. It chrono'd just over 1100 fps, 1125-1135 range. It was a 16" twist barrel. In the 5 years he shot it he only rang one ram that did not fall. He shot Master scores with it and still holds 3 Nat'l records as a junior 10 years later.

With paper patch bullets you should be able to get 54-56 grains of powder into the case and that's getting into 40-65 case capacity with grease groove bullets. A 40-50 should be competitive with paper patch bullets either in the bottleneck or Straight version.

I'm making up one with a 14" twist but it is no where near completion. I want to test it against the 16" twist one.

I'm the owner of a new Shiloh #1 in 40-70SS with a 14" twist barrel but have not gotten to the range yet with it. Ron and Barb Walters have a 40-70 with a 14" twist barrel and Ron claims it is stable to 1000 yards. I know Barb is a Nat'l record holder but I think it was shot with a 45/70.
"Perfection consists not so much in doing extraordinary things as in doing ordinary things extraordinarily well"
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arnie
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Re: 40-50BN and 40-70SS

Post by arnie »

I have been using a 40/50 bn for a few years now in our monthly silhouette matches .I shot a 30 this June with 4 chickens .Mine has a 16 twist Douglas barrel .The biggest problem is you need a bullet that wont go near the base of the neck so it doesn't push the wad below the neck shoulder junction .Another problem is I use .410 bullets and I have to be carefull not to expand the neck to low or it swells the neck in the lower 1/4 to big to chamber easily .Turning fixes this .I think a 40/50 straight might be a better way to go but never tried one .I got all the kinks figured out on the bn now . I use Winchester cases as they have more capacity and thinner walls . Recoil is very mild .
John Bly
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Re: 40-50BN and 40-70SS

Post by John Bly »

While loading other ammo today I checked how much powder a 40-50 SS case made from a Krag case would hold. It held 53 grains of 1 1/2F Swiss dropped tubed to within 1/8" of the top of the case. This was the last can of that lot of powder. My new lot is a little lighter in weight. I didn't check it. So with a paper patch bullet it should be right up there with a greaser 40-65
"Perfection consists not so much in doing extraordinary things as in doing ordinary things extraordinarily well"
BML
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:20 am

Re: 40-50BN and 40-70SS

Post by BML »

I appreciate everyone’s replies and information.

It seems like both of these cartridges are really super chambering. Between John’s praise for the 40-50 and Kenny’s very impressive groups, plus some information I have gotten from Orville, you guys have given me something to think about.

Thank you guys, again, and if anyone else has an opinions or information, please post!

BML
BFD
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Re: 40-50BN and 40-70SS

Post by BFD »

I'd be really interested to see how a .40- 50 with bore diameter paper patched bullets works. I'd want a 14 twist barrel however if the bullets were going to be in excess of 400 grns. I think it might be a little light for midrange matches, but it would certainly work.
MikeT
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Re: 40-50BN and 40-70SS

Post by MikeT »

I have been shooting a 40-50BN in my Shiloh Sharps for about 10 years. My current load is a 386 grain PPB over 59 grains of 1.5 Swiss. I had Shiloh put a 7 degree leed in the chamber because it started out as a gg gun. If I did it again, I would order the 40-50BN with a PP chamber.
It is accurate to 800 yards. I have no issues hitting the 805 yard buffalo target at the Q.

I have also shot a 420 grain PPB accurately to 600 yards and didn't need any barrel twist faster than 16. I see no benefit to shooting the 420 grain bullet over the 386 grain bullet.

Keep on hav'n fun!
MikeT
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kenny s
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Re: 40-50BN and 40-70SS

Post by kenny s »

the 40 50 SBN in the 1880's was a target round and great for deer etc.
but the amount of BP it can take is limited.
Now, I have NO experience with this case, however, I can load the 40 70 SS from
55 to 75 grains.
target or a big shaggy. (never did that, but if one walks into my backyard in FL, I'll BE READY! :D
the larger case allows me to play with the loads. seat the PP bullet deep with 50 grains, or way out with 70 2f.
just sayin' Ken
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kenny s
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Re: 40-50BN and 40-70SS

Post by kenny s »

the 40 50 SBN in the 1880's was a target round and great for deer etc.
but the amount of BP it can take is limited.
Now, I have NO experience with this case, however, I can load the 40 70 SS from
55 to 75 grains.
target or a big shaggy. (never did that, but if one walks into my backyard in FL, I'll BE READY! :D
the larger case allows me to play with the loads. seat the PP bullet deep with 50 grains, or way out with 70 2f.
just sayin' Ken
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