pitch for 50-70

Talk with other Shiloh Sharps shooters.

Moderators: Kirk, Lucinda

mdeland
Posts: 11708
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:47 pm

pitch for 50-70

Post by mdeland »

Had a hankering for a 50-70 for some years and wanted to get some ideas on useful pitch for the cartridge. I'll be using a roller for the action in all probability and want a carbine length barrel.
I've always liked the big Norwegian roller actions with the grooved block, to except the oversized case head, if I can find one at a reasonable price. Not in a hurry as I'm in the middle of building a flint Southern mountain rifle kit this fall and early winter. Have a couple Hickory self bows for my second daughter and grand daughter in mind too as they are both into Archery and I really don't know much about making them yet so it should be an interesting winter. :D
User avatar
J.B.
Posts: 644
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2004 10:31 pm
Location: Australia

Re: pitch for 50-70

Post by J.B. »

It's a great cartridge I found and there was little to be gained by playing with bullet weights much beyond the staple 450-470 grn range. I ordered a 28" barrelled Saddle rifle from Shiloh some years back & went with their 1/36" twist ( vs 1/22 " ) and couldnt have been happier. The 1/22's appear to shoot really well but I already had a 50/90 with that twist and wanted to try the more traditional twist rate. I believe 1/34 was the Sharps standard back in the day..but dont know about the Rollers. The rifle shot lights out as a hunting rifle to 150-200 yds ..and would cut one ragged hole on paper at 100. Even managed a close 2nd place in a steel shoot out to 800 yds on one occasion. I think its an underrated performer. Sold mine to help finance a 44/77 ( yes I got the 44 disease ) but if it turns up for sale... I'll probably buy it back. There is another in my future and it will have the slower twist also. hth. :)

rgds.. J.B.
"an experimental weapon..with experimental ammunition ? ...Lets experiment "
User avatar
Distant Thunder
Posts: 882
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2006 11:46 am
Location: NE Wisconsin

Re: pitch for 50-70

Post by Distant Thunder »

Mike,

My .50-70 Sharps has a 30" 1 in 26 barrel. I've shot bullets from 300 grains to a bit over 6oo grains and all shot at least reasonably well with some shooting exceptionally well. Bullets much over 550 grains start to get a bit pushy in a hunting weight rifle. I believe mine weighs right around 10 1/2 lbs.
The .50-70 is a fine hunting cartridge within it's range limitation of about 300 yards, but every man has his own limits. I much preferred to get within about 200 yards, but the stalk was always more important than the kill for me.

A roller would make an excellent rifle for your .50-70 project. Best of luck!
Jim Kluskens
aka Distant Thunder
mdeland
Posts: 11708
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:47 pm

Re: pitch for 50-70

Post by mdeland »

Thanks for the pitch help guys, I really don't know much about the 50 cal cartridges used in the Sharps or Rollers.
I'm currently reading a book on Hawken Rifle History by John D. Baird and he had a roller action made into Hawken styled rifle that he thought Gemmer might have made as he did with a trapdoor Springfield. I kind of would like to build the same style of rifle in 50-70.
I did fashion a Hawken style grip/ trigger guard on my match roller that I really like but did not stock it as a Hawken.
https://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd2 ... az4wcz.jpg
Perentie
Posts: 417
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:22 am
Location: Queensland, Australia.

Re: pitch for 50-70

Post by Perentie »

Here is one of a bunch of old Rollers I bought a few years back. Its a Carl Gustaf as it has the crown with a C on the RH side.
The barrel was badly pitted near the muzzle so I cut the worst off and made a carbine from it.
It has a 24 inch barrel now and balances just in front of the trigger guard.
It is in the original 12.17x44 which is .502 bullet diameter with a 1.73 inch case compared to the 50-70 with a .515 bullet and a 1.75 long case according to C.O.W.
The cases I have are cut down .348 Win but are only 1.5 inches long.
I am trying to develop a load that will enable multiple shots without wiping or blowing before I take it out amongst the pig population.
Slow twist . about 1 in 40 though.
It shot really high so I bought a high Lyman front bead and the 50 yd flip up rear is spot on now.
Nice little carbine to carry and shoot.

Image12mm carbine by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/141809689@N05/]
mdeland
Posts: 11708
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:47 pm

Re: pitch for 50-70

Post by mdeland »

Might want to try a 10 percent smokeless kicker charge . I can shoot my 45-70 all day long without wiping or blowing with my 10% duplex loads. Works really great for cold weather shooting. I like Reloader 7 for my kicker charge.
That action with the grooved block would be perfect for a 50-70 me thinks! :D
SchuetzenDave
Posts: 864
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:07 am
Location: St. Albert, Alberta

Re: pitch for 50-70

Post by SchuetzenDave »

When the .50-70 was introduced it had 1:48: twist and was designed to shoot 330 grain bullets.
When George Custer ordered his custom Remington Rolling Block in .50-70 with a 28" barrel they had progressed to the tighter 1:36" twist to shoot 450 grain bullets.

However the .450 grain bullet was only .950 inches long and did not make the general rule that a bullet length needed to be at least twice the groove-to groove diameter. (2x .512 or .515) for suitable accuracy.

Regardless Custer was quite impressed with his Custom .50-70 for hunting.

I was reviewing the older BPCR Silhouette records and there was a Master shooter who shot a .50-70 - so they must be accurate out to 550 yards.
SchuetzenDave
Posts: 864
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:07 am
Location: St. Albert, Alberta

Re: pitch for 50-70

Post by SchuetzenDave »

Bone Charcoal color case hardened 1874 New York State Rolling Block presently being barreled by Ron Smith with a 1:34" chrome moly gain twist octagon 30" barrel in .50-70 to shoot 450 to 540 grain bullets.

Picture of 477 grain bullet whose length is double the diameter.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
SchuetzenDave
Posts: 864
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:07 am
Location: St. Albert, Alberta

Re: pitch for 50-70

Post by SchuetzenDave »

Bullet Weight Length 1:36 1:34 1:32 1:30 1:28 1:26 1:24 1:22 1:20
Grains Inches
BACO JIM512450 480 0.970 1.80 2.01 2.27 2.59 2.97 3.44 4.04 4.81 5.82
BACO JIM511500 FN 500 1.010 1.69 1.89 2.13 2.43 2.79 3.23 3.79 4.51 5.46
BACO JIM512515 540 1.100 1.46 1.63 1.84 2.10 2.41 2.79 3.28 3.90 4.72
BACO JIM511600 FN 600 1.220 1.22 1.37 1.55 1.76 2.02 2.34 2.75 3.27 3.96
BACO JIM511650 FN 650 1.300 1.11 1.25 1.41 1.61 1.84 2.14 2.51 2.99 3.61
BACO JIM511670M1 Money 670 1.515 0.75 0.84 0.95 1.08 1.24 1.44 1.69 2.02 2.44
BACO JIM511695C1 Creedmore 695 1.450 0.88 0.99 1.12 1.27 1.46 1.69 1.98 2.36 2.86

Where the Gyroscopic Stability Factor (Sg) is supposed to be between 1.4 and 2.0 but some people like to over spin their bullets (to reduce drag over long distances) with an Sg up to 2.5.
mdeland
Posts: 11708
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:47 pm

Re: pitch for 50-70

Post by mdeland »

Have you squared the breech face and reduced the firing pin diameter? Also, I can't remember if this model has the grooved block to accommodate the large case head.
I like to replace the trigger spring with a piano wire torsion spring as well. One of mine has also been De Haas converted to a coil and strut main spring which I also like very much.
SchuetzenDave
Posts: 864
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:07 am
Location: St. Albert, Alberta

Re: pitch for 50-70

Post by SchuetzenDave »

The NYS Rolling Block has a split trigger with a safety feature which does not allow the use of a piano wire spring.
The flat blade of the trigger spring has to overlap both sides of the split trigger.
Trigger pull has been adjusted to 3 lb. through a sear modification - same as Remington did on their target rifles.

Since I only intend to use Black Powder there is no need to make a narrower firing pin.

The NYS Rolling Block is larger receiver frame and was designed for the .50-70 cartridge.
So there was no need for me to find an extractor for the larger head .50-70 case.

The breech face is still completely original.
mdeland
Posts: 11708
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:47 pm

Re: pitch for 50-70

Post by mdeland »

You can almost count on a rolling block face not being square to the bore. The design was not made for reloads so case head remaining square was not an issue. It can be with reloaded heavy loads.
This is a few pictures of the mods made to one of my rollers that may interest you.
Image
Image
SchuetzenDave
Posts: 864
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:07 am
Location: St. Albert, Alberta

Re: pitch for 50-70

Post by SchuetzenDave »

Yes the threading of the receiver is frequently not perfectly aligned.
This means the chamber will be out of alignment with the block face.

First step is to true the receiver threads so the rifle barrel is square to the breech face (before trying to machine the breech face square).

Does the modification to the hammer spring also reduce the trigger pull as well?
Or just speed up lock time?
mdeland
Posts: 11708
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:47 pm

Re: pitch for 50-70

Post by mdeland »

I doubt the coil and strut main spring are quicker than the original leaf spring but it is a whole lot smoother and more reliable.
Image
Breech face squared and firing pin hole taped ready for small tip bushing.
Image
Piano wire flat trigger spring replacement which is a major pull weight reduction, course the sear surfaces need to be stoned square as well for longevity.
mdeland
Posts: 11708
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:47 pm

Re: pitch for 50-70

Post by mdeland »

Both breech face squaring and action face squaring needs done before re-barreling. Both use the barrel hole threads through the action to orientate them.
Barrel spud and lap for truing a roller block face.
Image
Post Reply