Old derelict revivals

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mdeland
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Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:47 pm

Re: Old derelict revivals

Post by mdeland »

The heat on the barrel was approximately 450 degrees F. and that was just hot enough to remove the sight with the red thread locker used to moisture seal and lock under the dovetail. All the forging and sweating was done out of the gun in a small machinist vice I have. What your seeing is burned Outers gun oil coating the barrel. With the Force 44 low temp silver solder I use for sweating I could have successfully done it in the gun but chose not to.
You cannot heat a barrel hot enough with a regular propane torch to make any change metallurgical.
You can ruin a barrel with high temp silver solder if you do not use a coating in the bore to prevent carbon cook out but that takes over 900 F.
Modern barrels are normalized at 1200 F in a reduction atmosphere.
I machine and heat treat quite a bit of modern tool steel according to proper published heat treat protocol. The job on the sight was done correctly.
mdeland
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Re: Old derelict revivals

Post by mdeland »

When sweating in a barrel liner after tinning the bore of the parent barrel, I have to use two hand held propane torches to get the barrel hot enough along it's length to except the liner. Then the trick is to get out all the voids by adding more solder at each end. It will bubble out the air and suck up solder to fill the voids when done so vertically.
One thing I do not like the idea of though is TIG welding the muzzle of a liner as that does get hot enough to soften the barrel steel at the muzzle.
rdnck
Posts: 1885
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2002 9:33 pm
Location: Woodlawn,Texas

Re: Old derelict revivals

Post by rdnck »

That bit about those colors coming from Outers gun oil is BS, and if you don't know that, you should. That dark blue band is oxide from the steel indicating 450 deg. F, and the next gray band under the sight blade is an oxide indicator of 525 deg. F. The flat gray band from there out to the end of the barrel is an indicator of 600 deg. F or a bit more. You can BS some of the guys with your Outers story, but I have made a living running a forge and heat treating by eye for over 50 years. I know what I am looking at. I will say it is one of the best bubba jobs I have seen if that makes you feel any better. Shoot straight, rdnck.
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mdeland
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Re: Old derelict revivals

Post by mdeland »

The heat from a propane torch was used just long enough to make the red lock- tite break loose on the sight it took less than 30 seconds. It never got any where near the heat your speculating from color. The original sight was soft soldered in place and I used the same torch to remove it. As soon as the solder liquefied the sight was bumped off with a wood block. 50/50 solder liquefies at about 400 degrees. It took twice as long to remove the soft soldered sight as it did to get the lock tite to let go.
I know all about colors from heat and your just wrong about what you think your seeing in this case. As it didn't get any where near the heat you are saying I concluded it must have been the oil I use to keep them from oxidizing.
Had you been making the call on clean bright steel I would have had to agree with you. But again you blast out with a theory without having all the facts.
mdeland
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Re: Old derelict revivals

Post by mdeland »

Here is a picture of the crown Bill. Bright metal with no change from last night when the sight was removed. The crown is less than an inch from the sight.
I took it out in the sunlight and the color is straw color , common with any soldering operation which is between roughly 450-475 degrees F. There is no damage to any barrel steel at this temperature.
Lots of barrel lugs have been put on with hard solder and that takes 900-1100 degrees and you can run into trouble here without proper coating in the bore to keep carbon from cooking out (Scaling). That is the reason I only use low temp silver solder.
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rdnck
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Re: Old derelict revivals

Post by rdnck »

You cleaned the oxide off that crown with emery cloth to remove the oxide before you took the picture. Otherwise, the end of the barrel would have the same patina as the sides of the barrel farther back toward the breech. Now you're pissing on my leg. I'm done with this. rdnck
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mdeland
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Re: Old derelict revivals

Post by mdeland »

Well, now your calling me a liar! No I did not clean the crown with sand paper. If you look close you can make out the straw color in the picture. No I did not leave the sight in to the gun to sweat on the brass but it would not have hurt anything if I did. As I mentioned front sight bands and barrel lugs are often hard soldered onto barrel steel with no strength change to the metallurgy requirements and that is 900-1100 degrees F.
The original sight on this gun was soft soldered in place. As soon as it liquefied it was bumped off with a wood block that required approximately 400 degrees F. The red lock-tite came off with less heat and the crown was the same for both operations.
I have proven to you that your accusations are false and still you cannot admit that you have been incorrect.
Heat color only indicate temperature and those colors are established with clean bright steel. They do not indicate if metal structure has been changed. If barrels are normalize after machining operations like button rifling for instance then no strength change is made to the steel at temperatures lower than that which is commonly in the 1200 degree F range in a reduction atmosphere. The only worry is scaling if not protected from oxygen.
Ruger front sights are hard soldered to their barrels with no damage to them. Remington bolt handles are hard soldered to the bolt bodies with no strength loss. Both of those are critical areas as to hardness and strength and both are well over the temperatures we are talking about. You will also find many older sporting rifles with hard soldered sights and recoil lugs which are carbon steel quite similar to the steel in this rifle.
axman
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Re: Old derelict revivals

Post by axman »

Keep up the posts Please!
Great ideas and work.
Thanks
mdeland
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Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:47 pm

Re: Old derelict revivals

Post by mdeland »

Well the old girl is regulated to the brass addition to the front blade sight. She prints center bull at 50 meters with a six o'clock hold and about 1/4 bull elevation, still centered at 100.
We'll see how she does at next Sundays match but I'm looking forward to getting the old gun back in action again.
I do need to run it through the Oehler 35 screens to see how fast it's going. It can't be much over 1000 fps if that, I'd guess.
I was also thinking that I'd better remember to elevate the muzzle before each shot to get the 10 grains of Unique to be in the same case position for each shot. I looked in the charged case the other night while loading up another batch for the match and there ain't much powder in the bottom of that rather large .348 case.
The crazy thing about this gun is I'm not using a wad or any king of filler, plain base bullets and it's still accurate and doesn't lead at all. Go figure! Buy all rights it shouldn't work for sour apples but it just goes ahead and shoots any way. It don't give a dang about my high fluting theories! :lol:
mdeland
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Re: Old derelict revivals

Post by mdeland »

I sure would like to see some pictures of other "Brown" guns some of you folks have in the attic,barn, tractors or back of the seat in your trucks.
I was showing the carbine to a friend of mine on a job down at the port yesterday and he said he had once seen a Nylon 66 Remington with a hole wore through the butt stock where it had ridden around in a logging truck for years set up in the corner in back of the seat. :lol:
Folks on the farm used to regularly keep a barn gun handy to kill varmints getting into the livestock or chicken coupe.
mdeland
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Re: Old derelict revivals

Post by mdeland »

Well the ole girl did her thing and cleaned the chickens at 50 meters. That was really fun to do with the rehabilitated roller and 43 Spanish cartridge. :lol:
mdeland
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Re: Old derelict revivals

Post by mdeland »

I think I will try the pigs next month at 100 meters with the ole girl! I used the Francotti Cadet in .357 for the rest of the match and with the new bullet I'm really pleased with the gun performance but I need more trigger time and better sight settings for the 200 meter rams.
mdeland
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Re: Old derelict revivals

Post by mdeland »

I forgot to elevate the muzzle before each shot to settle the powder in the case but it didn't seem to make any difference in accuracy with Unique powder. One would think that full sized chickens at 50 meters would be a (gimmy) but no one has shot a 40 yet in twenty years of this off hand game and very good shots regularly miss a chicken or two at 50 meters!
We have a BPCR Silhouette .22 match coming up next Saturday I'm looking forward to!
mdeland
Posts: 11708
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Re: Old derelict revivals

Post by mdeland »

I don't know what it is about this ole gun but I can't seem to keep my hands off it. I keep it in the shop next to the door and just have to pick it up several times a day as I walk buy and snap off a few dry fires at a black circle I have painted on the shed about 15 yards away. :lol:
The ole beater is one of my favorites , go figure! I never do this with any of my new built guns. I am just so pleased and surprised at how well it shoots for being so short of barrel and having a pitted bore. :lol:
CWO
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Re: Old derelict revivals

Post by CWO »

This old rifle was given to me by a friend and not sure if its safe to shoot. Has excellent rifling but when looked at with a bore scope it's a tad sad. It's chambered in 43 Spanish and has the Navy emblem on the side of the action which is unusual to say the least. If it went to Europe it should have been re chambered during the time of the Spanish civil wars. Has anyone seen one of these military rifles with the Navy emblem and chambered in 43 Spanish ?? Think I'll try some smokeless in this ole fellow as black powder will hasten it's demise with the condition of the bore. What do y'll think good idea or forget it ???? Regards Bob
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