Set-Triggers “rule” when shooting the chickens

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TexasMac
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Set-Triggers “rule” when shooting the chickens

Post by TexasMac »

The title of this thread will not surprise many of you, but it’s only become clear to me recently. I’ve always been of the opinion that a high-quality BPC rifle will be on “equal footings” accuracy wise given a well-designed load, regardless of the manufacturer: Sharps, Ballards, Rolling Blocks, High Walls including the Miroku manufactured Browning 1885 High Wall BPCRs, etc. The Browning’s have proven themselves in competition since their introduction in 1996. And the market price for one fully outfitted for competition continues to offer a price advantage over other similarly equipped rifles. Hence the reason they continue to be very popular. As many of you know, I’ve been predominately a “Browning guy” until winning a Shiloh Sharps via a gift certificate at a match in 2017. Until then I’d had no experience with shooting a rifle with a set trigger other than competing with a custom Hawkens-style muzzle loader many years ago.

A good gunsmith can reduce the factory trigger pull of most “standard-triggers” to a crisp 2 - 1.5 lbs. Installing Lee Shaver’s modified sear and trigger spring will accomplish similar results in a Browning. A rifle with a standard trigger modified to break crisply without any creep will generally shoot well off cross sticks. But what I’ve come to realize is that’s not the case or norm when off-hand shooting the chickens. I’m classified as an AAA shooter and have always struggled, as have many of you, when shooting chickens. Averaging my chicken scores with a Browning with Shaver's sear kit (.40-65 & .45-70) over 95 matches resulted in 1.6 chickens/match. With the Sharps .40-65 the average over 19 matches is 2.4 chickens/match. By the way, I shot as well off the sticks with the Browning as I do the Sharps. I’ve discussed this with other shooters who have experienced similar results.

Wayne
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Glen Ring
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Re: Set-Triggers “rule” when shooting the chickens

Post by Glen Ring »

Jeanne thought she HAD to have a set trigger to shoot. Her set trigger started giving her problems so now she shoots her 100 year old 1885 w/o the set trigger and still beats me on chickens.

I shot revolvers and duty type guns for most of my adult life and trigger weight is usually irrelevant to me as long as it predictably breaks clean.

Jeanne's old Winchester breaks at about two pounds w/o being set and my Mirouku breaks around 4 to 5 I think.
With a very light set trigger I end up jerking the trigger when the target goes by.... and that's the reason Jeanne usually beats me on chickens.
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martinibelgian
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Re: Set-Triggers “rule” when shooting the chickens

Post by martinibelgian »

Direct triggers just require practice, and getting used to them. And of course, they need to be good: crisp, clean and light. A good direct trigger will have a major advantage over a set trigger: it' s quite a bit faster. But you do need to know how to use it offhand, and that's the hard part. I for one don't beleive they are an advantage for offhand work. Or any other work, for that matter...

So yes, I beg to disagree.

The main issue with offhand work is a balanced rifle- at least when no buttplate hook is allowed. it the point of balnce - even prone - is in front of your left hand, just forget it. When using a rest, different of course. But offhand, there is no rest.
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Re: Set-Triggers “rule” when shooting the chickens

Post by bruce m »

martinibelgian wrote: Sun Jun 28, 2020 1:57 pm Direct triggers just require practice, and getting used to them. And of course, they need to be good: crisp, clean and light. A good direct trigger will have a major advantage over a set trigger: it' s quite a bit faster. But you do need to know how to use it offhand, and that's the hard part. I for one don't beleive they are an advantage for offhand work. Or any other work, for that matter...

So yes, I beg to disagree.

The main issue with offhand work is a balanced rifle- at least when no buttplate hook is allowed. it the point of balnce - even prone - is in front of your left hand, just forget it. When using a rest, different of course. But offhand, there is no rest.
what he said.
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TexasMac
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Re: Set-Triggers “rule” when shooting the chickens

Post by TexasMac »

So, based on the comments, after a hundred matches or so and practicing an additional several hundred shots off-hand over at least 18 years with my two Browning's, which have 1&3/4 lb. triggers with no creep and break as crisp as glass, I guess I don't know how to shot off hand. BTW, I added over a pound of lead to the stock through-bolt hole to balance the rifle just about perfectly when held just in front of the receiver with my left hand. It's balanced much better than my Sharps.

Nope, my results over the 18 years tells the story for me. I'm absolutely convinced a set trigger gives me about a 1 chicken advantage on the chicken line and the scoring trend is improving even more in favor of the Sharps set trigger.

BTW, a fellow I shoot with has a Browning & a Pedersoli Sharps with a set trigger. He's an experience shooter, preferring the Browning off the sticks but the Sharps on the chickens. The difference in his chicken scores between rifles are similar to mine with a clear advantage of the set-trigger rifle.

Wayne
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mdeland
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Re: Set-Triggers “rule” when shooting the chickens

Post by mdeland »

I have and use both but the best and most accurate rifle I have uses a simple trigger with an 11 0z pull weight that breaks clean and the same every time. There is no discernible movement just pressure then it breaks.
With set triggers every lever movement means more time between break and bullet exit. This is where follow thorough comes into play. I believe what happens between the break and bullet exit , especially with heavy hammer fall guns which tend to disturb aim is that there is time for the sights to come back into alignment in the normal figure 8 pattern of muzzle movement most shooter have, when good follow through is present.
There has to be a reason most Schuetzen rifles(which is mainly an offhand venue) have set triggers.
Now having said that I shoot better with the simple trigger on my best match rifle than any of the others with set triggers. I don't believe follow through plays as important a part of simple trigger shooting as it does with set trigger shooting. Simple trigger shooting is practiced instinct work so that pressure is applied, held and advanced as the target moves in and out of alignment until the shot breaks . I got so I could score myself very accurately by remembering where the sights were at the recoil movement before ever getting a score from the pit. This is one reason I never believed the old saying that if you can call your shot your not flinching. When one tries to grab the target as it goes by is actually a form of flinching and I can still accurately call the impact point when I have done this.
Learning to shoot a flint gun with set triggers is a real learning experience in follow through as now one has ignition lag time along with set and lock movement time to deal with so follow through is an absolute imperative for good accuracy offhand.
In short I think set trigger shooting has different technique requirements that come to play as opposed to simple trigger usage.
Now I have not meant to imply that follow through is not necessary for simple trigger use as it is always needed but I do not believe it plays as big a role as with set trigger usage.
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Re: Set-Triggers “rule” when shooting the chickens

Post by Kurt »

I have a strange going on shooting off hand. With a set trigger and I come across the target my finger just won't move to set the shot off when I want. Using the rifles without a set trigger I don't have this problem. I think it's a subconscious thing with the light trigger fear setting it off to soon.
A heavy trigger I hold pressure on it and I know what his needed to set it off and I shoot the off hand better with a heavy pull.
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TexasMac
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Re: Set-Triggers “rule” when shooting the chickens

Post by TexasMac »

mdeland wrote: Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:06 pm I have and use both but the best and most accurate rifle I have uses a simple trigger with an 11 0z pull weight that breaks clean and the same every time. There is no discernible movement just pressure then it breaks.
With set triggers every lever movement means more time between break and bullet exit.
Mike,

You bring up a good point, and I'm aware of the possible disadvantage due to the additional linkage in set triggers. But the very light set-trigger pull apparently is an advantage over the 1lb 12oz triggers in my Browning's. Now if I had the triggers down to well under a pound as with your rifles the results may be different. But I don't feel that anything under 1.5lbs is safe with the Browning, especially when getting down to 11 or 12oz. I'm not a Schuetzen shooter but possibly that's why they tend to use set-triggers.

I know what some reading this may think. With a very light-pull standard trigger just don't cock the hammer until ready to shoot. But I have cocked the hammer on a couple of rifles with light-pull standard triggers around 12oz and once in a while they will fire without touching the trigger. And it's common for them to fire if the buttstock is bumped. Of course it's possible that the gunsmith did not do a good job honing the sear surfaces.

Wayne
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SSShooter
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Re: Set-Triggers “rule” when shooting the chickens

Post by SSShooter »

Our sport's "No.1" chicken shooter over the past 20yr or so, uses a SST rather than a DST. He started with a DST Sharps and moved to SST 1885 after a few years and has never looked back (though time may be catching up to him, as it does us all). Personally, the 'routine' of setting the double-set trigger is something I prefer with each shoot, off-hand or prone.
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DAVE ROELLE
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Re: Set-Triggers “rule” when shooting the chickens

Post by DAVE ROELLE »

As always a number of differing experiences and interesting viewpoints

Wayne has in INTERESTING DATA

Personally I do a better job on chickens with a weight forward balanced rifle

Dave
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desert deuce
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Re: Set-Triggers “rule” when shooting the chickens

Post by desert deuce »

As I recall, when Ron Calderone shot his Grand Slam Iron Sight Score of ten chickens in a row he was using an1885 Browning Silhouette Rifle in
45-70.
Sometimes you get the chicken, and sometimes you get the feathers!
Aviator
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Re: Set-Triggers “rule” when shooting the chickens

Post by Aviator »

I am a relative new-comer to the sports of BPCR Silhouette and Target Rifle competition, and am always interested in discovering what works for shooters that are better than me. I appreciate people sharing their experience!

I have found that in general, fellow competitors are very helpful and willing to share information, and I find that to be a nice change from other things I have participated in.

However, I have noticed that if you get answers from three people on the best way to do something, you may very well get three different methods, each presented as clearly the best way!

I am not complaining! It just goes to show that people all not all the same. I enjoy trying different ways, and figuring out what works best for me. But it is always good to start with methods that work well for others.....
John Boy
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Re: Set-Triggers “rule” when shooting the chickens

Post by John Boy »

Wayne, I favor DST triggers shooting either steel or Schuetzen matches offhand:
* My CPA action for all caliber barrels was set at less than 1 oz by Paul Shuttleworth. Paul said "That's about right"
* The procedure for offhand sight picture is not to hold directly at the intended POI
* Start the sight picture below the target and slowly raise the barrel up below the intended POI
* By the time one pulls the trigger with ones reflexes, the POI will be closer or on for accuracy
Regards
John
mdeland
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Re: Set-Triggers “rule” when shooting the chickens

Post by mdeland »

I have one rifle with a close couple double set trigger (CCS) that I like best as far a set triggers go. I have a pistol with a double set arrangement that is the best for me because it fires from the back trigger and is set by the front. Both of these triggers work better for me because one does not have to reach for the firing trigger as is necessary with the standard double set arrangement which changes the grip angle. Folks get used to doing this with practice and it becomes subconscious movement that does not seem to be any disadvantage to them but I prefer not to have to reach for the firing trigger.
Shutinlead
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Re: Set-Triggers “rule” when shooting the chickens

Post by Shutinlead »

I'm going to have to go with Wayne on the set trigger theory.
In most cases I find I shoot better offhand with a set trigger, not just the silhouettes but in offhand target too. With the set triggers, I find I have to change my focus, that is, think only of the front sight. Breathe down, focus on center, and at the bottom of the breathe the sights will center, my finger relaxes, falling to the bottom of the trigger guard and things happen. I also use a middle finger and high elbow for offhand so it changes the norm. (the process is similar to using back tension style mechanical release method with a bow) It's a retarded process but it works for me in both disciplines. If I try this process on the single trigger even with a light break it won't work. In result averages, I've been as much as 75% better than my work with single triggers.
My mess includes several rifles with double sets, single sets and my favorite - close coupled. My process works exceptionally in the most recent build I'm shooting, the "Ugly Ballard" (a striker with close coupled) not really meant to be shared on a Sharps Forum so you'll have to see my posts on other forums.
Greg
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