I need assistance on which barrel and twist rate to use

[bruce m]

don,
i have used a lot of different barrels in my time.
one lesson learned is that buying a barrel is like buying a lotto ticket.
the better the barrel, the more tickets you have.
you say "who gives a flip about fclass"
the fact is that those rifles have to really shoot to be competitive.
to do this, the must have the best components.
i have never owned a mcgowan, and probably never will, because building a rifle is a very expensive process, and the cost of a better barrel is not much more overall.
i do feel that black powder shooting will have a glass ceiling until shooters stop accepting mediocre scores with pride.
this applies to wind reading, loading ammo, and rifle building.
a mcgowan barreled rifle was top of what?
it is not about who gets prizes, but about how we can all improve as individual shooters.
if you can't make 10 lilja barrels shoot a better average score than 10 mcgowans, you have some homework to do.
bruce.

[Don McDowell]

So you took the long way around the barn to say no you haven't ever owned or shot a McGowen?

[mdeland]

When I said straightly bored I meant functionally straight as almost no barrel comes out with zero run out and if it does it's more on the order of an accident. These barrel that are perfect as can be made in runout and rifling diameter and even pitch consistency are often referred to as Hummer's !
A good question to ask any barrel manufacturer is if they vise jig straighten their barrels.

[desert deuce]

Not speaking for Bruce, however, I am a firm believer that there is truth in the saying, "it is the Indian not the arrow."

That said the Indian in our case is the limiting factor, not necessarily the barrel. What good is a sub minute of angle rifle if the Injun loads improper ammunition and/or can't stop jerking the trigger?

Going back to the original post and original question have we strayed away from a truly helpful set of suggestions. Based on the projected use?

[bruce m]

zack,
you can speak for me if you want.
but getting warm and fuzzy about mediocre scores will never improve the injun.
bruce.

[Don McDowell]

Thing is, if a person isn't going to or can't use the finest BPCR barrels from Shiloh, then you're down to McGowen, Green Mountain, Douglas, BRC and Krieger. From there you are at the mercy of the guy cutting the threads, cutting the muzzle, and running a reamer squarely into the bore, and putting in the sight dovetails .
After that you go to work with the thing, and always keep in mind "warm and fuzzy scores" are much better than no scores at all.

[desert deuce]

I remember a match that had assembled many of the best BPTR Long Range Shooters in America.

They shot shoulder to shoulder that first day, only two scores above 200 our of a possible 300 points. I seem to recall a 209 was high that day. Looking at the score sheet an experienced BPTR competitor/observer from afar would probably conclude that the conditions were not favorable to an impressive high score.

Environmental conditions do affect scores. Even between relays on the same day at the same match, not to mention between yard lines.

[Don McDowell]

And there are some ranges where the vortex's coming from various structure along the way will affect the bullet flight even on the same relay. It's all part of the game.

[Kurt]

Thing is, if a person isn't going to or can't use the finest BPCR barrels from Shiloh, then you're down to McGowen, Green Mountain, Douglas, BRC and Krieger. From there you are at the mercy of the guy cutting the threads, cutting the muzzle, and running a reamer squarely into the bore, and putting in the sight dovetails .
After that you go to work with the thing, and always keep in mind "warm and fuzzy scores" are much better than no scores at all.

Personally I would not put the GM barrel in that line up.
I have has several that needed some work to quit pulling lint off a patch. But again I have not used a GM barrel for a long time so I don't know if they improved since then.

[Don McDowell]

2 rifles with GM barrels mounted, one from about 15 years ago, it took a lot of lapping to get it smoothed out, but shoots very well, another from a couple of years ago, and it shoots lights out right from the get go and just keeps getting better..

[BFD]

I have two GMs. They are my most accurate barrels and both win matches, as do other GM barrels that I know of.

[mdeland]

Lilja and Hart make top of the line barrels as well as good or better than most. I mentioned lapping a few GM barrels. One I did was smooth and very uniform as confirmed by bore scope and plug gauges but cut patches on round balls because the rifle corners were so sharp. I figured it must have been rifled with a brand new button. Any way I poured a lap slug and used 400 grit compound which is as fine as I personally go and gave it 100 passes up and back. It still cut patches for about a hundred rounds but finally smoothed up and now is my best chunk gun muzzle loader.
I've also mounted a couple of GM .22 RF barrels that take a back seat to nobody!

[mdeland]

I should mention that nothing reveals bore uniformity like a poured lap slug with some lapping compound on it. You can actually feel any change at all and I'm talking in the .0001 range. The barrel I was talking about lapping in the previous post had this quality about it that I noticed the first pass up bore with the first charged lap slug. I was amazed because often times when lapping a bore the first passes with a naked slug and lubed bore require a padded rod and mallet to get the slug moving freely.

[bruce m]

mike,
you are right about the feel of a lead slug in a bore.
it is amazing how they show tight and loose spots.
in fact it is amazing how manufacturing can produce such variations in bore diameters.
lapping is why the odg could make barrels as good as today if they understood how to do it well.
don, getting a good barrel and sending it to a lesser practitioner to fit is like casting pearls before swine.
the action and threads should be trued, the axis of the chamber and threads follow the bore and be central, etc.
the red light is if the guy is using a 3 jaw chuck.
the time it takes to fit a barrel for best effect costs money.
then the shooter needs to be good enough to take advantage of this by loading the best ammo and being able to shoot.
falling blocks require a lot of mental application and understanding to perform at their best, due to great need for consistency.
i personally had to see an optician and have a lense made for a knobloch frame to see the sights properly for best aiming.
for those not prepared to go the full mile, such attention to detail could well be wasted.
it is my belief that these rifles can group along with 308 palma rifles at their best, the main difference being increased wind deflection for the black powder single shots.
there is a saying about eagles and turkeys.
better barrels will give better opportinity to soar.
the guy at bartlein has single shots, and believes that better barrels make better rifles.
just because it is black powder is no excuse to be happy with second best.
as an aside, one brand of barrels sadly now not available is badger.
bruce.

[mdeland]

The one thing that a lap slug can detect that a plug gauge or air gauge won't is a change in helix angle of the grooves. A good lap slug cast from the breech end (which is how I usually do the job) can be 4 inches in length and will easily pick up any variance in pitch change which is rather uncommon in modern rifling mainly because of the steel hardness consistency in barrel steel.
One thing I would suggest is to lap the breech face square to the bore as most rollers are not even close.