The Mile a Ballistics experiment.

[ChrisF]

That sigh was made specifically to shoot that distance I believe

[Kurt]

I don'r see why a .45-70 won't do well enough to hit that large target at a mile.
4 of us were shooting at Rick's (that posts here as the Sandhills Cowboy) ranch in Nebraska and he has a Quigley target setup from the bucket to the buffalo just like the Q and we backed up to the far fence line that was 1585 yards to the buffalo target and this is about life size. !585 yards is just about 200 yards short of a mile and I used my .44-77 with Lawrence rear barrel sights and a sight Stephen made for me that is like the front sight on a Sharps Hartford and I wanted to see if I could hit that iron buff using the .44-77 with the irons and a original sharps profile rn bullet like they used in the late 1800rds.
The wind was up and it took just a couple shots before I found a dark spot in the sand hill to hold and connected with my hunting load of about 75-6 grains of 2F, cant remember the exact load but I don't think it will make 1330 fps with the 485 grain bullet I use and the Lawrence staff still had plenty room to come up to reach another 200 yards plus the notch on top of the ladder.
I think a .45-70 that will reach 3500 YDS will reach one mile

We hit this at 1585 yards. If I can hit this at 1585 with none wind adjustable barrel sights a tang sight should do a lot better.

april 2013 112.jpeg

[rdnck]

Just guessing here, but it looks to me like the vertical spread on those four shots is around 12 to 14 inches. I also seem to remember another picture posted of that buffalo target that had six or eight hits on it, all in the forward part of the body. That is close to a mile with barrel sights and a hunting load. Food for thought. Shoot straight, rdnck.

[rdnck]

Upon further reflection, we may be looking at the reason the 44-77 was so popular on the buffalo ranges. Shoot straight, rdnck.

[Shutinlead]

I'm going to inject some thoughts from my own experiences. I have a Borchardt that I built into a 45-110 and it is one of my mile guns. Like you I had a place to shoot with a 6' gong but the max distance was 1520 yards, had a "wind funnel" ravine at the 920y mark that provide a consistent 3 o'clock breeze and a ridge at 1200y that created some updrafts - it's a challenge on the right days. Reading everything just right, shooting a NEI 545g nose pour greaser that Walt made me a while back, loaded with 1F, and a couple other particulars- a respectable group came fairly easy- figured the mile would be as easy. The 240 more yards doesn't come as easy as one may think... I learned a long time ago not to get too cocky out loud, but in one's own mind you tell yourself it's going to be a cake walk, you convince yourself that it's going to be easy... with nobody the wiser, I've had to grab that big black bird and start eating- those feathers don't do much to cleanse the mind of the smell of skunk. I have a couple of new builds in the 50 category and a place where I can get 1800 yards, someday when time permits that bird and I are going to come to terms.
On the other hand, the 45-70 is a very capable caliber for making the mile. One of the mile's this season held in N. Montana was won by that caliber. I didn't make it this year, but they say the conditions were a bit challenging - If you've shot Jim's match you'll probably agree.

Kenny, wishing I could make it work and attend your match - it's been 20+ years since I've been to your ranch for a match... The ball and chain of business and the new shop project have consumed the majority of my discretionary time, winter's coming, one last truck of mud to get down, and all the tin to fasten on this giant erector set. I hope after that I can play a little more.
Greg

[Kurt]

Greg I never said it was a cake walk or it never entered in my mind thinking it was.
Shooting at that long range I wanted to settle my curiosity because of the journals I have read of the hide hunters using their barreled sighted rifle making some extreme long range kills and using my rifle with barrel sights I found it could be done. there were three other friends shooting at that buff and when it was all over that black painted buff was covered with quite a few lead spots.
Around my part of the country is flat land and I have shot over plowed cornfields in the spring at trees in that fence line at these long ranges with barrel sights and I will say I would not want to be sitting under on one of those trees.
But what I was getting at was that a .45-70 will get the job done in the right hands.
And by the way I know the taste of black feathers shooting a lot closer ranges

[Kenny Wasserburger]

This I believe will be our 5th Mile match.

A few folks need to brush up on their reading comprehension skills. I never said anywhere that the 45-70 can’t reach a mile. What is said, is simple, they haven’t had any success in placing. It is interesting to read the nay sayers, none of you have ever shot a mile Target. I do believe Kenny Heir has the ND mile target record with 4 hits? If I am mistaken Dan Cash or Kenny can clear that up. Btw Kenny did that with a 45-110 PP I believe.


Bill and Kurt, you both know BobW rather well, I suggest that you both talk to him about the difficulties in hitting a Mile target accurately. I believe he can give you some insights as to the unique issues of hitting a mile target accurately and especially repeatably.

As for the sandy hook tests, I am well aware of them. However the rifle tested that worked the best was a special sharpshooter model of trapdoor, you boys need to reread it, carefully. It was a 45-90.
The 45-70 was chosen as a compromise.

We have collected a lot of data, theses years since putting up the Mile target in 2007, I just distilled it down in a few sentences, obviously it’s upset a few of you fuckers that can’t wrap your heads around that. Somehow you think I am mistaken.

Edwin Perry wrote an exceptional book in 1879, several of you profess to have read it . You need to either reread it or get a copy. Perry stresses the importance of a load holding vertical at 1000 yards. I would also suggest you read the match results in that book. None of the old dead guys used a 45-70 in that match, none of them used a grease Groove bullet.

That last time the vaunted Wimbledon Cup was won, with a BPCR was in 1903 at Sea Grit NJ. The Gentlemen was William DeV Fouke. Using a Sharps Borchart, with a 105 gr charge of powder and. 550 gr paper patch bullet. Oh btw he was wiping with a Fisher Brush, and drying the barrel between Shots. Townsend Whelen wrote about this several times.

For those that have never been to a mile match....and ours was the first, btw. Opining your opinion that the 45-70/is up to scoring well or wining, are just spouting Gas Until you actually try it.


Now for some actual evidence, here are several pictures

Top picture is of recovered bullets from one mile, from top down are my PP loads after they have hit the outer which is of tank steel quite a bit softer than the AR 500 bullseye. The middle bullet of the group is one of Randy Clearcrick Shooter. A load that he dropped 5 grs of powder to lessen the felt recoil of that 50-90 of his. It was an experiment that didn’t fare to well.. notice the steep angle of the bullet coming into the steel it clipped a grader cutting edge laying in front of the target.

Those below it 5th down is a recovered one of mine that was short and skidded on the hard dirt cutting a furrow in the ground. Next two are my monogroove bullet that Tony Nielsen and I came up with for a 18-1 twist Barrel. It shoots well at 525 grs.

The next two pictures are quite telling, notice the impact angle of these two different bullets, it is considerably flatter than the 50 bullet. Now the 50 load with 5 grs more of powder is closer to pictures of mine but not quite.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Here is a close up of the 50 that was just short of the target, the 5 gr less powder load showed considerably more vertical that the year before load that won the match. No one said that a 45-70 can’t reach a mile..... it has yet been proven to hold enough vertical to make a good score. [attachment=0]E6AA343A-1CE3-4F66-A381-179CF02A007A.jpeg[/attachment]

[Kurt]

Kenny.
I just re read my two posts and I don't see where I said it was easy to hit a target at a mile.
That target I posted not all of those 4 hits are mine I quit shooting when I settled my curiosity that a buff could be hit at that long range using just the barrel sights like I suspect most of the hide runner used.
I cant say just how many hits I made because of the wind carrying away the hit sounds except for a couple hits.
My point was, a .45-70 is quite capable doing the mile hits but it depends on the shooter behind that butt plate.

You guys have a good time sending lead over the rolling sand dunes and don't pop that cork on the bottle too often the night before. You might put more lead splatters on that oil barrel with a clear head.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Kurt...

Not sure what you mean by rolling Sand dunes, there are no sand dunes on the ranch anywhere. Some sand bars in Lance creek.


As for my head, lol, it’s always clear when shooting,

Obviously if you think we have sand dunes on a 6500 acre working cattle ranch, either your head isn’t very clear today, or senility has you very confused.

Considering the fact that I have hit it 8/10 at one mile would suggest I have a pretty clear head when I am shooting.

At least I know there are no sand dunes on our ranch.....you are very fucking confused about several things.


Obviously the pictures don’t click with you.....btw....a little hint....it’s all about the vertical one’s load will hold at a mile...just like the target you missed it by a mile.
KW.

[mdeland]

What would be your guess as to velocity of the 1406 fps load at the target ? Looking at how splattered out some of those bullets are is quite surprising to me.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Dan T and I had quite a bit of discussion on this, he opined that the least amount of vertical in ones load, coming in at the angle one’s bullets at a mile that ours do will yield the better score. If....properly centered on that 8 foot tall piece of steel.

He allowed what he called the window that your bullet looks at when coming into the target.

Many many times we can get a shooter up to the target, a min elevation change will give a miss over the top, a min back down now a miss low Their load can’t hold the steel. I have seen it way to many times.

Especially educational is sitting in the armored pit and at 280 yards at an angle, you see a lot, and you will hear much more. A bullet destabilizing makes a strange noise, where as a stable one just slices through the air. The difference between the two is quite noticeable.

Dan saw the pictures it’s obvious that my PP loads are much flatter, all of us using MVA XLR, will notice my PP load is shooting 30 to 40 minutes flatter. I have proved this with using the exact same load of powder and wads, and a single GG bullet vrs a 538 gr PP.

The GG bullet required 40 more MOA elevation, both shot in the same rifle 34 inch barrel with irons so about a 36 inch sight radius.

None of this you can possibly know, if you have never been there and done it.

No got to finish loading the truck and hook up the camper, you can set around on your asses jawing about something you have never done, yet tell me I am wrong.

Remember pounding lead out of a barrel at big whiskey years ago, because someone had their bullets dipped in some sheep tallow lube that was Supposed to be excellent. We were shooting with forest fires all around us very hot weather and RH was 6%.

That wasn’t me either,

KW

[Kurt]

Your right, no dunes but rolling ground.
I stopped on my way north and looked at the range when I saw your Dad on the tractor and had a nice chat with your Dad. Nice fellow.

[gunlaker]

Many many times we can get a shooter up to the target, a min elevation change will give a miss over the top, a min back down now a miss low Their load can’t hold the steel. I have seen it way to many times.

I've seen this a few times at "only" 1000 yards too with a .45-70. Of course it depends on how good the load is, but it's got to be way worse at a mile!

I hope you guys have a great time at your match. I cant imagine how tricky the conditions are to read at that distance. I only sometimes have a basic handle on it at regular Creedmoor distances.

Chris.

[Aviator]

I bet a good time will be had by all.

Sure wish I was going to be there! I would have liked to give my 45-70 a try, even though the odds are against me!
Hope I have another chance in the future.