BPCR Attendance Decline.....

[Shutinlead]

Charlie,
Figured it must have been something like that, we looked around and you were gone! Enjoyed the weekend!
And it's not always a woman that kicks our butt, I remember a very short time ago that it was not only a girl but a 10 year old at the time that poured a whole can of whoop-ass on all of us... shooting the 22's. I distinctly remember turning in a score that previously would have been a top contending score, dropped a couple three total but she shot it perfect...

Paul, you have been missed even by those that don't know you that well... you folks from the north country add to the mix nicely.

Following this weekend even my wife has decided that maybe she's missing out, "do you have a 22 I can shoot?" I'd say maybe that's an excuse for another build, but wait! think I already have 4 or 5 sitting taking up space in the safe... have a couple G-daughters of my own getting close that I've been planning on...
Greg

[charlie young]

Greg, can't imagine you not building her one. And more than likely something that only you and Trent have heard of!! Should probably give a shout out to the match directors and their crew. Not only do they put on the Medicine Rocks match but the same Men and Women also put on the Fall Big Hill shoot, plus the 3 in June and 2 in July! Talk about dedication!! I believe Mark said that at Medicine Rocks, for 3 days of shooting they gave out 62 plaques for all the various venues.

Charlie

[TexasMac]

There are many reasons why BPCR (big bore) is losing interest. All have been mentioned in this thread in one form or another. Concerning some of the aging long-time big bore shooters, it’s the time & energy required for reloading. On more than one occasion I’ve overheard comments to that effect. You rarely see them at big-bore match but they show up for .22BPCR, which is a growing sport, at least at Yaupon Creek. And where do you tend to see some of the younger newcomers? It’s for .22BPCR. So, where possible, let’s mix the two sports together.

I firmly believe that the only way to increase interest in big bore is to mix .22BPCR with the big-bore matches &, if necessary, allow the relay time for big-bore to apply to the .22 shooters. A percentage of the .22 shooters will be exposed to and become interested in big-bore. Intermingling the two sports will offer an opportunity for the new .22 shooters to watch & ask question about big bore & possibly have the opportunity to shoot a big-bore rifle after the match. Of course the range has to be available to handle both shooters at the same time. And you can bet there would be some big-bore shooters that will figure out how to shoot in both during the matches

This suggestion was discussed at an informal meeting at a Yaupon Creek some time ago and shot down by the regular shooters due to the inconvenience, which I don’t consider significant given the future benefits to the sports. And yes, the .22 shooters would have to wear hearing protection during the match.

Wayne

[Glen Ring]

Wayne
I agree 100%. 22 bpcr is an easy sport to compete in and 10 year olds can have fun with their parents and grand parents.
One thing we have done is to encourage new shooters in lever action and really build the B , A and AA classes .
I have seen other matches that cater to the so called " elite' and they seem to diminish in numbers.

We had a couple of shooters that complained about EVERYTHING. The pneumatic targets was a favorite criticism so we replaced the Pneumatic s with all brand new free standing targets..still complaints from the same few.

Our 100 yard berm was made in the late 70's and the same folks complained it was at 100 meters...we offered to let them move the berm and steel between relays.

Finally we realized NOTHING could please those folks so we invited them to try and happy elsewhere. THAT WORKED GREAT !
Some shooters thanked us for those moves and we had the best Regional ever this year with Max numbers for our range.

I'd rather have 5 young happy new shooters than one cranky complaining so called " elite' shooter.
Hard choices for match directors...but if it grows numbers then it's a good move.

[Kurt]

I think one of the things that is killing the Nationals is all the good positives you read on the forums before the event and then after the Nationals the flood of negative complaints. It has turned me personally away from attending as much as I always wanted to compete.

[Clarence]

Kurt,

I agree that the negative voices after the Nationals seem to be the loudest. But I suggest taking them with a grain of salt. Don't let that be the only thing that keeps you away.

I've missed only a couple of N nationals in the last 20 years and can't remember one that I didn't enjoy. Sure, there were the occasional negative issue, but overall the vast majority of shooters are fine people enjoying themselves and enjoying meeting and talking with old friends from all over the country. I enjoy the competition, but enjoy the people and the camaraderie the most.

Clarence

[Glen Ring]

Clarence
We shot next to you , your wife and grandson at the nationals.
We still talk about how nice you guys were and I firmly believe that 98% of all BPCR Silhouette shooters are like you.
I want to attend a match with my 12 year old grandson and make sure he has a good experience .

We have had our grandson a LOT since his birth. When he was about 5 years old we were at a silhouette match in Texas and temporarily lost sight of him. A couple from Arkansas waved us down and shouted " He's over here having lunch with us '.

Another time when he was about 5 he walked up to John Vandergriff and asked ' You got a bathroom in that trailer? Can I see it" and he took the tour!
I think 98% of shooters are like seeing family year after year.

There are a few shooters that complain about everything and they will never be pleased....I say ignore those " Debbie Downer" types and just shoot and have fun.

[TexasMac]

There are many reasons why BPCR (big bore) is losing interest. All have been mentioned in this thread in one form or another. Concerning some of the aging long-time big bore shooters, it’s the time & energy required for reloading. On more than one occasion I’ve overheard comments to that effect. You rarely see them at big-bore match but they show up for .22BPCR, which is a growing sport, at least at Yaupon Creek. And where do you tend to see some of the younger newcomers? It’s for .22BPCR. So, where possible, let’s mix the two sports together.

I firmly believe that the only way to increase interest in big bore is to mix .22BPCR with the big-bore matches &, if necessary, allow the relay time for big-bore to apply to the .22 shooters. A percentage of the .22 shooters will be exposed to and become interested in big-bore. Intermingling the two sports will offer an opportunity for the new .22 shooters to watch & ask question about big bore & possibly have the opportunity to shoot a big-bore rifle after the match. Of course the range has to be available to handle both shooters at the same time. And you can bet there would be some big-bore shooters that will figure out how to shoot in both during the matches

This suggestion was discussed at an informal meeting at a Yaupon Creek some time ago and shot down by the regular shooters due to the inconvenience, which I don’t consider significant given the future benefits to the sports. And yes, the .22 shooters would have to wear hearing protection during the match.

Wayne

What I find interesting is most everyone has an idea why attendance is dropping off at many of the big bore matches but I have not heard any concrete plans on how to fix the problem. I proposed what I consider is a solid suggestion that should be considered & only Glen bothered to comment. If you think it may be a good idea than let’s hear from some of you that agree. If my idea has no merit than I’d sure be interested in reading your opinion & comments on this thread. You’re definitely not going to hurt my feelings & I certainly won’t take it personally. Please don’t send me a PM, comment here. Thanks.

Wayne

[desert deuce]

Texas Mac, The World Creedmoor at Phoenix March 2021 has included .22 BPTR in the program. So have other venues.

Same story, if people show interest by showing up and shooting, well, it should grow. If they don't, it probably won't. There is even talk of including .22 BPCR in the future at Phoenix if enough people participate. Talk does not equal participation. The best ideas will fail from lack of participation.

Heard the same complaint over and over again, "Oh brother, I just cain't drive all that 200 miles just to shoot for two days and drive back." NASCAR, NBA, MLB, NFL should not longer be a deterrent, if you are an American Patriot.

OK, The Phoenix Match gives you a choice of matches during eleven consecutive days of shooting. For most reading this post that is more than a year of top flight black powder competition folded into one trip to sunny Phoenix Arizona when many places in the U.S. are frozen solid.

It is the greatest match on planet earth at the best range in the United States. The range will accommodate over 300 shooters. There is no more economical match cost to shot fired in competition anywhere else. So you tell me what more can be done to entice shooters to attend?

The purpose of the Match Directors is to provide a quality shooting experience that is fun for the competitor. What's not to like?

[jackrabbit]

Wayne, I don't know if your idea has any merit or not. I would think not as the one of the biggest reasons I enjoy the 22's is the lack of ear protection, smoke, muzzle blast, and recoil, and if you are shooting on the line right next to a big bore, you have to endure at least some of that. Besides, people will have to decide to either shoot 22's or big bore, so you may get some more folks shooting 22's but the big bore numbers will decline.

The bigger issue I see is you seem to like to stand on the sideline and tell the coach what he should do. Why don't you be a coach? Find or build a range and start running some matches! Texas, especially, could use some more. Put your own spin on things and have some fun. If you build it, they will come! The biggest reason for the recent decline in our sport is a lack of motivated, progressive, fun, match directors. Either there is no one to run the matches, or the guys that have been doing it for 20 years are tired and no one will take it over. If you really want to make a difference, start putting some matches on!
Cody

[TexasMac]

Wayne, I don't know if your idea has any merit or not. I would think not as the one of the biggest reasons I enjoy the 22's is the lack of ear protection, smoke, muzzle blast, and recoil, and if you are shooting on the line right next to a big bore, you have to endure at least some of that. Besides, people will have to decide to either shoot 22's or big bore, so you may get some more folks shooting 22's but the big bore numbers will decline.

The bigger issue I see is you seem to like to stand on the sideline and tell the coach what he should do. Why don't you be a coach? Find or build a range and start running some matches! Texas, especially, could use some more. Put your own spin on things and have some fun. If you build it, they will come! The biggest reason for the recent decline in our sport is a lack of motivated, progressive, fun, match directors. Either there is no one to run the matches, or the guys that have been doing it for 20 years are tired and no one will take it over. If you really want to make a difference, start putting some matches on!
Cody

Yup, there would be some inconvenience to the .22 shooters, which is the same argument against commingling the shooters that was given at the Yaupon Creek discussion on the subject. I shoot both venues & would gladly accept the inconvenience if it would result in additional interest in big bore. BTW, my suggestion is for the monthly or local matches, not the regional or national matches where both .22 & big bore are held together but on different days.

Concerning me being a match director or building a range, even if I had the desire and funds to do so it’s not going to happen and, getting close to 74 & declining health, I’m too old to consider such options now. I learned a long time ago that I don’t have the patience to be a coach or match director. It would be great if I had the land or funds to build a range but it’s not in the cards.

Wayne

[Shutinlead]

Cody,
I do agree with you about getting a range going and/or hosting matches, but it's not for everyone. I've shot with you at Cheyenne a time or two, and I've had best intentions of making one of your shoots, still plan to, and WANT to. As a small business owner/operator the clients and the work strongly dictate what I do and how I spend my time. I admire reading and enjoy hearing how your shoots turn out, I hear nothing but positive things about the events you put on, so I will make it to Smithmoor when time permits.

Now on another note, I purchased some more dirt (acreage) a few years ago with the intent of building a range and hosting shoots myself. The range was built, along with most of a new facility for my operations (a machine shop), but again I find the work interferes with hopes of hosting these events. I did host an event a couple years back as a test to see what kind of responses I'd get. I didn't advertise, just a little word of mouth, 22 silhouette. My range consists of 50, 100, 150, 200 yard and I opened to any 22's classed only by scope and iron. I also opened my safe and provided several single shots, LW's, #4 rollers, Ballards, Stevens and even a Cole. The turnout was overwhelming. My range is setup to comfortably handle about 12 shooters - I had 42 show up and compete... The event ran from a noon start time until "can't see". I felt the entire event was poorly ran (mostly by me) a little help from a shooter or two that had been around another event of some sort, but I must be somewhat mistaken because the folks that shot that event still stop me on the street and ask when I plan to hold another... some are now regulars and one or two are always invited but never show.

I have held several since, I limit the event to family, close friends and the students that participate in my gun building class. There is a lot to consider in organization, structure and liability. The latter being one of the most concerning issues - my insurance underwriter went ballistic after hearing what I had done... A signed paper document still doesn't release you from liability for stupidity.

So... those that have been holding these events, my hat goes off to them! Hopefully more will step up but it does take a special sort of person to make these a success.
Greg

[jackrabbit]

Concerning me being a match director or building a range, even if I had the desire and funds to do so it’s not going to happen and, getting close to 74 & declining health, I’m too old to consider such options now. I learned a long time ago that I don’t have the patience to be a coach or match director. It would be great if I had the land or funds to build a range but it’s not in the cards.

Wayne

Wayne, you don't get out of it that easy. Saying you can't is no excuse. How old do you suppose Dick Hennebry is or my Dad? You don't have to build a range (although a 22 range can be built quite simply for very little money), there are existing ranges that I am sure you could work with. I don't mean to sound like I am picking on you, I just want to make the point that a lot more people are capable of running matches. Not for everyone, I agree, but it is also not that hard or big of deal if someone makes up their mind to do it. Sitting around whining about why the sport is in decline and throwing out ideas while expecting others to pick them up accomplish nothing. Organizing and putting on a match accomplishes a lot.

From being a lifelong engineer, I am sure you know that ideas are cheap. It is the implementation of an idea that has the real value.
take care, Cody

[TexasMac]

Concerning me being a match director or building a range, even if I had the desire and funds to do so it’s not going to happen and, getting close to 74 & declining health, I’m too old to consider such options now. I learned a long time ago that I don’t have the patience to be a coach or match director. It would be great if I had the land or funds to build a range but it’s not in the cards.

Wayne

Wayne, you don't get out of it that easy. Saying you can't is no excuse. How old do you suppose Dick Hennebry is or my Dad? You don't have to build a range (although a 22 range can be built quite simply for very little money), there are existing ranges that I am sure you could work with. I don't mean to sound like I am picking on you, I just want to make the point that a lot more people are capable of running matches. Not for everyone, I agree, but it is also not that hard or big of deal if someone makes up their mind to do it. Sitting around whining about why the sport is in decline and throwing out ideas while expecting others to pick them up accomplish nothing. Organizing and putting on a match accomplishes a lot.

From being a lifelong engineer, I am sure you know that ideas are cheap. It is the implementation of an idea that has the real value.
take care, Cody

Cody,

Sorry, none of your comments “stick to me” so to speak. No doubt there are a lot of guys that can organize & run a match but I’m not one of them as noted earlier. Land may be relatively cheap in your area but not in Central Texas & I definitely don’t have the funds to purchase any even if it was significantly less expensive. As for ranges in the area, there are a few but none have a 200 meter or 200 yard range available for .22. I belong to the largest firearm club around the Austin area & we have a 200 yd range but the powers to be will not allow its use for .22 rimfire, & I have petitioned them as has the match director that runs a modified 100 yd .22BPCR monthly match at the range.

BTW, you won’t catch me “whining” about the decline in big bore BPCR. What I offered was what I thought was a workable solution to those that are complaining. If I did any whining it was intended to get some members to respond to my suggestion.

And through my many published BPCR articles and website I believe I have helped the cause much more than many. I constantly get emails from new shooters or shooters considering BPCR thanking me for the articles and information. I definitely know several that commented they only became interested in the sport due to reading one of my articles. Yes, I enjoy the experimenting, but writing the articles and posting them to my website is my way of increasing interest in BPCR. I may sell a few books on the Browning and a few related items now and then but it's a "labor of love" for me. There is no possible I'll ever make a profit. I reap the rewards from the comments I receive from new & existing shooters.

Wayne

[jackrabbit]

Wayne,
1) Keep saying "can't" and see how far that gets you.
2) Your idea is not "workable." I do not want to shoot my 22 next to some guy shooting a big bore and will not do it at my range.
3) Thank you for all of the articles and contributions you have made.
take care, Cody