Swiss standard cracked vs Caviar BP

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TexasMac
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Swiss standard cracked vs Caviar BP

Post by TexasMac »

Hey guys,

A new shooter has asked if I've had any experience with Swiss Caviar, which I have not. I understand it meters better than the standard cracked powder which makes sense but question how well it compresses. I did search for earlier comments on this forum but there's little to report. I've run across reports on other forums that it's harder to ignite. It costs more than the standard Swiss. It does not seem to be popular, possibly because the price or characteristics? It's listed as available by BACO and the Main Powder House but it's not listed at all on the Schuetzen Powder Energetics Inc. website, at least I could not find it.

So I'd like to hear some feedback from some of you that have tried it - no speculations please. Thanks.

Wayne
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jackrabbit
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Re: Swiss standard cracked vs Caviar BP

Post by jackrabbit »

Dave Gullo told me he is using it.
Woody
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Re: Swiss standard cracked vs Caviar BP

Post by Woody »

Mac,

I tried a pound of it when it first hit the market. Didn't find it any better of worse than the normal Swiss. I didn't think it was worth the slightly extra cost. I have unconfirmed rumor that Butch Ulsher is a fan.

Woody
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desert deuce
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Re: Swiss standard cracked vs Caviar BP

Post by desert deuce »

I confess, the swiss, bullet, load, rifle combination I have shoots better than my abilities. Why should I look further?
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bruce m
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Re: Swiss standard cracked vs Caviar BP

Post by bruce m »

desert deuce wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:08 pm I confess, the swiss, bullet, load, rifle combination I have shoots better than my abilities. Why should I look further?
because you have an enquiring mind?
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45bpcr
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Re: Swiss standard cracked vs Caviar BP

Post by 45bpcr »

Howdy Wayne,

I bought a case or so of that powder way back in 2014 or there about.
I figured that would be enough to try it out.

Somewhere here I posted photos of my experiences loading and shooting that powder.
It was a somewhat complicated powder to work with, much more so than 1 1/2F.
It wasn't "glazed" and was a flat black in color.
Compressing it turned it into dust at the top.
It seemed to be extremely hydroscopic to the point of discoloring brass in the loading tray on a muggy day if you spilled any.

I gave away a few pounds of it and still have a few left.
Tambie or Jim would be good folks to talk to at Schutzen Powders.

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desert deuce
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Re: Swiss standard cracked vs Caviar BP

Post by desert deuce »

Bruce, even my curiosity has it's limits.

It goes something like this: Once you reach the 90% success mark, you may expend more money, time and energy between 90% and 95% than you expended achieving 90%. I think it is called the law of diminishing returns.

In Creedmoor 90% = 270 95% = 285 Reality says if I am shooting to my highest average abilities on any given day and end up with a 270 average for three ten shot strings of fire at 1,000 yards the rifle and load are not the limiting factor and if I really screw up and shoot a 288 or so it was not the rifle and load that made that 18 point spread, it was me shooting unconscious with focus on what I should have been focused on.

Therefore being completely secure knowing that my rifle and load combination are capable of producing scores better than my ability to consistently shoot them allows me to focus entirely on shooting. When you understand that shooting well is 96% mental and shooting poorly is 100% mental it makes sense to focus on the mental. :wink:

Oh, and a little secret, conditions may be a factor.
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TexasMac
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Re: Swiss standard cracked vs Caviar BP

Post by TexasMac »

Guys,

Thanks for the feedback on Caviar. Due to the limited available info on the powder and the feedback here the powder is obviously not popular. Therefore my recommendation to new BP shooters is to pass it up for the standard cracked Swiss.

Wayne
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clearcrickshooter
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Re: Swiss standard cracked vs Caviar BP

Post by clearcrickshooter »

I found with using the very same charge weight with Caviar as with standard swiss powder,my scores dramatically increased. No fliers. Powder column height was identical from load to load (with no compression) Fouling control was better than the regular. Of course a good spotter helps as well. :D It's not really a terrible lot higher than the standard,if bought by the case. I feel that it's worth it. A full shooting season with it next year will do more to confirm my tests of course. Clearcrickshooter
bruce m
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Re: Swiss standard cracked vs Caviar BP

Post by bruce m »

zack,
sometimes focusing on conditions leaves little room in the brain for much else.
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desert deuce
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Re: Swiss standard cracked vs Caviar BP

Post by desert deuce »

Then Bruce there came a moment while shooting a Creedmoor Cup Match at Ben Avery in Phoenix Arizona when I saw the light. A bright light.

Don't recall exactly whether it was the first or second day of record fire, in fact I don't recall much more than the moment when light dawned.

In Creedmoor Cup record fire the shooter does their own spotting. Darrel Tonn was my scorekeeper that day and some very proficient long range shooters surrounded my firing point as we all directed our attention to the targets down range at 1,000 yards.

My three sighter shots were very encouraging and I was looking forward to wading off into my record string of fire. Conditions were not horrible but they were subtle to tricky but nothing like what they could be. I had been shooting all that year by myself without a spotter on a 44" diameter steel plate at 1,000 yards. Just me, the rifle and my Kowa. So when I hammered those three sighter shots into the center of the target I was not surprised. More like reassured that the rifle, load and the shooter were in sync.

For the first record shot I loaded, read the condition, set the sights and fired. When I looked back in the scope, before the shot hit the target, I knew it would strike right of center. Yep, a 7 at 2 o'Clock. Load, read the condition, set the sights and fired. Back in the scope, thought yes I made the right correction but it came up a 9 on the 8-9 line at 2 o'clock. Load, read the condition, set the sights and fired, boy now that one looked and felt really good. Target came up, a 9 close to the last shot. Load, read the condition, came half minute right and fired, pinwheel X. The next six shots were 3 X's and 3 10's, Score 95x4. When Darrel handed me the score card he commented, " I was watching, I saw you make a sight correction every shot and I didn't see much change in conditions, obviously you did. Congratulations that was really interesting to watch. "

The secret then revealed was this, when I was in the prep period I knew that the rifle, load and I were as ready as we would ever be. I knew that if I did my part the target would tell me what I needed to know about the conditions. All I had to do was execute the fundamentals of marksmanship for each shot correctly and know where that shot landed to determine the controlling condition. From the first sighter shot to the last record shot I was simply an operator observing what happened and the hundreds of rounds fired in practice readied me for that string of fire in the match.
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TexasMac
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Re: Swiss standard cracked vs Caviar BP

Post by TexasMac »

Hey guys,

I'd sure appreciate it if everyone would stick to the subject (comments on Swiss standard vs Caviar). Thanks.

Wayne
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bruce m
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Re: Swiss standard cracked vs Caviar BP

Post by bruce m »

a good read zack.
(sorry wayne)
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desert deuce
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Re: Swiss standard cracked vs Caviar BP

Post by desert deuce »

Wayne, please.....consider it a matter of perspective. Classically a comparison of subjectivity and objectivity with objectivity the important determining factor of interest to competitive shooters.

Essentially what Bruce and I are offering here, again, is an objective discussion to set objective benchmarks for performance on target as the desirable suitability factor. In plain terms, here is what the cracked has done performance wise on target in match conditions; do you have comparable results with caviar? Clearly an invitation by example to join an objective discussion by comparing actual results.

The example and perspective I posted set an objective benchmark for caviar to meet in the discussion cracked vs caviar the determination of which is of interest to the competitive shooter. In this case, results on the target in long range competition which one may argue could/should bleed over into the subjective discussion, if permitted.
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Don McDowell
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Re: Swiss standard cracked vs Caviar BP

Post by Don McDowell »

TexasMac wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 3:27 pm Guys,

Thanks for the feedback on Caviar. Due to the limited available info on the powder and the feedback here the powder is obviously not popular. Therefore my recommendation to new BP shooters is to pass it up for the standard cracked Swiss.

Wayne
:shock: Why the heck would you do that :?:

Seems the prudent thing to do would be to tell them to try at least 3 lbs of every brand of powder in the appropriate F size they can lay their hands on, keep meticulous notes on load data, and group size, then when the smoke clears get a case of the powder that showed the most promise, and get to work going to matches and learning to deal with all that goes with shooting a match.
We know there are a few shooters that are using the Caviar to very good affect. So recommending that some one don't try it due to lack of response on a forum somewhere seems rather ignorant to me.
AKA Donny Ray Rockslinger :?
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