Extreme bore leading

[TexasMac]

I recently sold a BPCR that was in great condition except for the bore which looked great upon initially inspection. But, as part of my normal inspection process, I run a few patches through the bore – good thing I did. Several patches continued to come out dark grey using bore cleaner/degreaser– no loose crud, just dark grey patches. At that point I knew there was a leading problem – no need to check with a bore scope. Some tight turpentine patches followed which pulled out a lot of lead. But more patches indicated there was still a lot more. So next, to speed up the cleaning process, I used an electrochemical bore cleaner. After a couple of hours alternating the electrochemical cleaner with wet patches to remove the layers of BP fouling the bore was finally clean & looked great. There were alternating layers of lead over layers of BP fouling extending from the chamber to the muzzle. It’s by far the worse bore leading I’ve run across - the trials and tribulations of buying and selling firearms. I’m just glad I caught it rather than inadvertently passing the problem along to the new owner.

Wayne

[mdeland]

You might want to scope it now Wayne to see if the base for all the fouling is carbon which is hard to see looking through a bore with the naked eye and even harder to remove once it gets baked on. You know how hard is is to get it off say a cookie tin even when scrubbed with steel wool and ajax type pumice cleaners.
That's what I've been getting out of some of these jacket bullet barrels with lapping. The scope often reveals strong rifling but it looks scorched from throat to over half way up bore. I believe this may be what the plug gauges are showing in some cases when the lower barrel region is tighter than the rest. If the barrel looks clean through the scope and a tight spot shows up ahead of the throat area then I know it is probably some steel that needs leveling or choking depending on where it occurs and the bore profile your after.
About the best tolerances that can be achieved by machine alone is .0004. Some will guarantee .0002 but I'm thinking that is probably with some form of lapping in production. Most of us don't have the means to actually check it that close any way but a charged lap slug will pick up even that little variance that can be felt.

[TexasMac]

Mike,

Just to be sure I did scope it afterwards. It looked completely clean like a brand new bore. There was no indication that jacketed bullets were ever fired in it, only lead & BP. Due to the many layers of BP fouling and lead the leading may have started shortly after the rifle was 1st shot. I don't know the history of the rifle but it was in great shape when I shipped it, inside and out.

Wayne

[mdeland]

Another good post Wayne and interesting as usual ! I'm always getting new thoughts and ideas from them to hopefully improve and advance.
I just re-barreled a Weatherby 340 belted mag this week and when I test fire it in my sand trap the huge volume of burning powder gas blew off the lid. Smoke and dust every where! My son comes running out to the shop and said , Wow dad that was unusually loud!

[mdeland]

Almost all of it was burning powder smoke as the sand and powdered lead from broken up bullets is oil soaked and keeps it in the steel base trap. It sheared off one of the bolt heads that secures the lid at two points. It has never failed with standard mag cartridges I've fire into it but this is such a huge case it lifted that 30 lbs steel lid right up in the air about 6 inches with a gout of flame radiating out from under it. No damage to me or anything else but it sure made me chuckle.

[TexasMac]

BTW, if someone reading this has one of the Outers Foul Out electro-chemical cleaners be sure to read the instructions and do not, I repeat, do not let it run unattended for several hours. It should be checked every 30 minutes or so. Outers discontinued the Foul Out several years ago, most likely due to misuse and resulting bore damage. I know some users were letting it run overnight. But they pop up on eBay now and then and some have created their own cleaner by following the electronic diagrams & instructions available on the Internet. If the unit is left on with the cleaning rod in the bore for too long it can etch the bore if there's any rust present. Used properly by following the "Special Condition" and "Instruction For Use" in the owner's manual the unit works great and will remove 100% of the lead or copper in the bore depending on the solution used.

Wayne

[mdeland]

I never did use one personally. I was never comfortable with electrolysis inside a bore after seeing how it works at different points on an aluminum boat hull.

[Trigger1212]

I've had a foul out unit for years. Once they were discontinued I purchased all the copper and lead fluid I could find. Now a days I almost exclusively use it for bad leading situations. The various foaming bore cleaners (I use the outers product) do such a good job that there has been no need to use the Foul-Out units. Lead on the other hand is a real PITA to get out and the FO unit takes it out in a snap. It actually does it easier and faster than with the copper, assuming that is because the lead is softer than the copper fouling.

The #1 thing in my experience using these units is

1. There cannot be any oil in the bore or on the rod, this will act like an insulator and the unit will not work, no electrical flow. Wipe it all down with a product like Bore Scrubber, to get that all out.

2. Watch your times like TM noted, especially important with lead as if working well then you will actually be able to see the little pieces of lead flicking over from the barrel to the rod. This can build a bridge between the barrel and rod, "shorting" the system out and it will stop working. Doesn't hurt anything, just stops working. The fluid WILL break down in the in the barrel if left in too long, so it is important to make sure it's working and limit sessions to 30 minutes.

3. May take more than one session. Like any other system, sometimes you need to stop and give it a good scrub to get the carbon fouling out to expose the next layer of copper/lead. If you don't take this gunky layer of fouling out then it will be very difficult to get the conductivity you need to make it work.

WONDERFUL cleaning system, IF you use it properly as TM stated.

My .02 on the subject.

Wade

[TexasMac]

Wade,

Excellent comments on using the Foul Out.

Wayne

[Glen Ring]

I learned something new about cleaning BPCR rifles. Thanks Wayne.
Since I've shot guns all my life Jeanne will ask me a question about her BPCR rifles and my reply is usually " I don't know, look in Wayne's book or pull up his posts reference that on the Shilo Forums.
Thanks for Passing along good info.

[TexasMac]

In cleaning BPCR bores only shot with lead and BP, once all the BP fouling and lead is removed a patch with cleaner/degreaser should come out white assuming a bronze brush is not used. If the patches come out dark grey or grey than the bore is not clean.

BTW, if a bronze brush is used, even if the bore is clean, subsequent patches will come out grey from either the bore metal removed by the brush or the brush material wearing down, so it's almost impossible to determine if the bore is fouled or leaded by the appearance of the patches. Therefore, only in very rare circumstances will I use a bronze brush, opting for a nylon brush instead.

Wayne

[Glen Ring]

AND just learned something else!! No wonder it's been taking me forever to think I have a clean rifle.

[opencountry]

Good, really good thread! Very educational.

Robert

[mdeland]

Get a clean take off/spare barrel of 4140 steel and steel wool clean a spot to bright clean steel. Now take what ever bore solvent you use ,clean and dry the same area . Now use a clean white patch with the same bore solvent and rub the previously cleaned area. Is the patch still white or is it grey? There isn't any carbon , lead or jacket fouling on this barrel steel.

[mdeland]

I'm curious if bench rest people use the electrolysis foul out system ? That is usually a good indicator of what works and is safe to use.