A 45-110 Dual diameter bullet design

[beltfed]

Kenny,
I agree with everything that DT/Jim K has been saying. He and I have worked together on several of the DDPP bullet designs.
And I like your dimensional mods to the 455545E for your 16 twist 45-110
First, seeing what you measured/calculated as the FF case I.D. I suggest
that when you talk to Dave and Jim at Baco, you "base'" your design on the "sister" mold 453545E which is
Identical to the 455545E, except for the base band diameter is .453 rather than 455. The 453545E
is closer to your desired base band diameter.

Your last dimension for seating depth is 0.350, plus the 0.050 freebore, so base band becomes 0.400.
and is set at 0.452" so it will patch to about 0.457 with your added 0.005 of paper.
Then you are adding 0.030 to the "patch to bore" body. All else is same as the 453545E

Lets picture your bullet :

OAL is 1.490"
Nose/Ogive is 0.675 long as per the 453545E This is about 45 % of the new length- Excellent.
Body diameter is 0.445" Proven in your rifle for patch to bore
3.5 degree transition to the 0.445" body from the base band
Base band is 0.400 long and . 0.452" diameter
Length of base band plus transition plus body is 0.815 for about 55% of OAL

The proportion of nose/ogive to overall length of about 45% has been working well in a number of bullets.
Going much over that, especially if over 50% can lead to problems with twitchy head winds.

Looks good to me. for fitting your rifle. I think it will fly well.
Arnie

I

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Indeed,

I believe the brand brass used will had a definite effect on what size your major diameter will be for your rifle. I use nothing but Norma in my 45-110s anymore.

Kenny W

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Arnie,

Thank you for the valuable insights. I am printing off your post for when I call BACO, and talk to Jim.


Much appreciated.

Kenny Wasserburger

[bruce m]

kenny,
the measurement thing just has to be worked out thoroughly, and this is possibly why it has taken so long for this style of bullet to take off, which it seems to be doing now.
i have found the sheer luxury of repriming cases, charging them, and then finger seating bullets much to my liking.
i have wondered about having a 90 gegree step in these bullets, but went for the 7 degree of my chamber transition in fear of making a stress point there for paper.
for ease of finger seating, the patched to major diameter of the bullet obviously needs enough clearance to start inserting the bullet.
one thing about thicker brass is that you can shave a little off with a neck turner if you absolutely have to,
i like the bullet to press back onto the leade angle as i chamber the cartridge, but whatever gives best accuracy is what you have to do.
what you are avoiding here is the major bumpup of the base of the bullet when you light the fire.
it is already mostly bumped up.
while an orville chamber has a lot to offer a pure pp shooter, these bullets offer the best of both bore and groove dia bullets, greaser and pp.
as said the major diameter will protrude past the case mouth if it is to contact the barrel.
however you are dealing with this.
bruce.

[bruce m]

just another thought.
patching these bullets can be interesting in the beginning.
i patch them wet on a jig and roll the bullet in a straight line till it gets started.
then i take it off the jig and finish it like rolling a cigarette.
this keeps the wraps on top of each other and square to the axis of the bullet as for a normal bullet.
when dried on a coffee warmer the paper on the monor diameter pulls tight.
i suspect the paper is then a small ammount thinner on the major diameter, but each patcher would have to work this out for themselves.
unlike arnies bullets, my 12:1 and 14:1 bullets take the rifling pretty much up to the ogive.
bruce.

[beltfed]

More good thoughts , Bruce.
On the ease of pp bullet seating into the FF cases.
After cleaning my FF cases, I run a two step "M" type die plug in just far enough
so that the larger step enters the case mouth perhaps 0.020 to 0.030" to
prevent the paper being damaged.
I use a two step expander for example for my 40 cals of 0.410/0.413. This is just enough,
but not too much to avoid the case mouth being too tight into the chamber.

Re Patching. I find no problem with either wet or dry patching. That small difference between
the Major (base band) and the Minor ( the body) does not prevent getting a nice wrap.
Length ( circumferentially) has to be such that the meeting point between the patch ends is narrower but not overlapped
at the ogive, and will be a bit wider at the base. No problems so far .
I, too finish up by the "cigarette roll" to get the paper all good.
Arnie

[beltfed]

Kenny,
Just had a question.
You measured/calculate the FF case I.D. at about 0.456.5"
What is the diameter of the freebore?
And the Groove dia of the bore. ?
Just wondering how far the Major/base band diameter of the bullet will have to bump up
upon firing.

( BTW, I am liking the term "MAJOR " AND "MINOR" diameters for the bullet body- )

I presume you are probably using 16+1?
In the two rifles I am paper patching for , the FF case I.D. is a couple thousandths
larger than the groove dia.
So I can and do use a patch to groove Plus a thou or two for the Major diameter
since my 9+1 COWW/Lino bullets do not bump up-they don't have to,

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Arnie,

Yes using 16-1, on this 25# bull barrel groove depth is a touch tight as is bore diameter, about .4575 groove and bore is under .450, some where around .4495, this is the reason why I have to use a .445 bullet in this rifle. My other rifle a .446 size works well and snug into the bore. My very best scores have been fired with my long .446 money bullet sized to .445. I have a Paul jones Money mould that was cut for this rifle and it shoots well but to date not as good scores as the sized BACO bullet. This BACO bullet is 1.520 long.

The Shiloh’s short leade I an not sure of the diameter. There are plenty of claims that the Grease Groove chamber won’t shoot pp well. I disagree. I have seen fired bullets from so called pp chambers that showed evidence of multiple bump ups in the last 3rd of the bullet fired into a pool. Accuracy was less than stellar, not as good as PP shot in a Standard Shiloh Chamber.

Kenny

[bpcr shooter]

I have one of Jim's DDPP bullet molds and the more I shoot, the more Im getting to what, Kurt, Jim and Arnie are using for there lead mix. Even though the nose design is more "blunt" if you will, it seems to shoot better every time I make the alloy harder. I did start with 16+1. Now Im going to go with 16+1 of 95/5 and temper them in the oven.

X2 on the 2 step "M" die!! that make the case mouth perfectly round.

I does take a bit to learn, how to wrap a 2 dia bullet but once you learn what angle to pull, the paper lays really nice on the bullet even dry patching.

matt

[bruce m]

i make patch templates with different angles each end, so that the patches are longer at the base end than the nose end.
these patches run end to end on the bullet just like normal patches on a conventional bullet.
bruce.

[GrumpyBear]

i make patch templates with different angles each end, so that the patches are longer at the base end than the nose end.
these patches run end to end on the bullet just like normal patches on a conventional bullet.
bruce.

Pictures ?

[Distant Thunder]

The difference in circumference between .454 & .450 is .012". Whether that is enough to make a difference in accuracy due to the patch length I have never noticed. I have never done any shooting for myself with a 2-diameter pp bullet in .45 caliber, only in .40 and most lately in .44 caliber. I did work with a friends rifle in .45-70 to develop a 2-D pp bullet for him, but I did not adjust the patch template for the 2-D bullet and I believe he is still using it today.

All my .45 caliber pp bullets have straight bore diameter and mostly shot from two rifles, my Shiloh .45-90 with a standard Shiloh chamber and that was very accurate. Also my Hepburn .45-70 with a tight Danielson pp chamber that would not chamber anything other than a bore diameter pp bullet and it has proven to be very accurate too.

It amazes me how accurate the standard Shiloh chamber can be with bore diameter paper patch bullets and that is the reason I went with the standard chamber in my .44-77, I knew it would work. I think the main advantages of the 2-D pp bullet is the ease of loading (minimal if any case sizing) and the initial resistance offered by the groove diameter being against the rifling. They can be especially beneficial in rifles with a longish freebore when properly fit to the freebore. The chamber that Kirk puts in his rifles does not have a very long freebore, .050" to maybe .100" and his chambers are tight and that is a big help with pp also.

My hope with the 2-D pp bullets is that the design will help shooters interested in shooting paper patch to get over that hump that seems to exist when one moves from grease groove to paper patch and thereby put more paper patchers on the firing lines. They should also help those with rifles that have a chamber that may not be friendly to straight bore diameter paper patch bullets. In my friends .45-70 going to a 2-D pp bullet made all the difference. We first tried bore diameter and they were ok, but he has done much better with the 2-D bullets.

Paper patch bullet of any of the three basic designs, bore diameter, 2-D or groove diameter can be as accurate and I believe even more accurate than grease groove. The problem that I see is there is a learning curve that a shooter must go through when shooting paper patch and I have been unable to talk some shooters through it. I think shooting with a successful pp shooter would help most shooters, I know it helped me when Brent Danielson pushed me over the hump. It was a BIG help for me to be shooting with him for a few years and learn whatever I could by watching him and asking questions.

It's really not that hard once you get it figured out, kind of like learning to ride a bike. Now it seems so natural to me that I can not even think of shooting grease groove in a Sharp or any other black powder big bore single shot. And I look better shooting paper patch than I ever did shooting grease groove!

The 2-D paper patch bullet has a place in our shooting and I think we will be seeing more and more shooters using them successfully in the years to come.

[Kurt]

I have a early BA 2 pin mould that I cut a DD base on that is very close to what Kenny is getting ready to have made. This was my first attempt cutting a DD PP using the mill and I had some problem getting it perfect. The mould block had some misalignment between the halves and the thin stem boring bar caught the high side of the block and it chattered the cut a little and cleaning most of it out I got the base at .456" but nothing hurt when I run the bullet through a push through die.
I chose a 5º taper and the base is .460" long. From what little I have shot this bullet in my .45-90 it shoots pretty good. I think the longer shank keeps the runout to a minimum being seated deeper in the case.
The next one I'm getting ready to modify I will put the mould block in a 4 jaw lathe chuck so I can use a stiffer boring bar.

IMG_3788 2.JPG

[bruce m]

kurt,
you can chase minimal runout to a degree by holding the bullet in the case neck, but there comes a point when you have to neckturn brass to get any better.
far easier to make the bullet fit the bore well and put as much of it in there as you can, with as little in the case as you can.
this approach might suit kenny's new 2.6" chamber when he gets it.
about 0.001" clearance between bullet and neck will allow for better alignment when the round is chambered than a tight fit.
jim,
your last post hit the spot on all counts.
bruce.

[Kurt]

Bruce I agree. I have always patched to slightly above bore or right at bore diameter to ensure that there is the least amount of runout.
When I saw Arnies bullets he gave me to check out I saw the advantage of the expanded base diameter that would accomplish my goal for a fast gas seal something a proper wad stack can do but when a PP bullet at bore diameter there is a time laps during obturation that a groove diameter PP bullet that is tight on the lead does not have to expand to seal the bore.
A wad stack in the case mouth is less than groove diameter and at the chamber transition there is a void for a leak that a properly designed bullet is like a cork in the bottle. This why a breach seated bullet will out perform a bullet patched to bore diameter.
But then again I have shot some pretty tight groups with a bore diameter PP bullet