.50-110 to .44-77 viability

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Zac D
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.50-110 to .44-77 viability

Post by Zac D »

Howdy all,

I’m new to the Sharps community but have done a fair amount of reading around these parts, so thanks in advance for the knowledge already provided. I’m looking to purchase my first Shiloh through Mr. Goodman soon (a Hartford) and had a question on brass.

My understanding is that affordable .44-77 brass is practically impossible to come by short of a lucky find on an auction site and BACO brass formed from other cases. I’m curious though, has anyone had experience with the BACO .44-77 cases formed from Starline .50-110? If so, does BACO do anything besides the neck thinning that can’t be done at home (stretching, etc) with a sizing die and some patience?

Seems like a good solution to brass availability for this cartridge if indeed it is doable, I just haven’t been able to find info from anyone who’s used them.

Any advice is greatly appreciated,

Zac D
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Distant Thunder
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Re: .50-110 to .44-77 viability

Post by Distant Thunder »

Zac,

I can't speak to converting .50-110 brass to .44-77, but I have work with other brass to see if it was doable. After a lot of work making tooling to do the conversion and then more work converting 50 pieces I concluded it is NOT worth all that work if there is another way and there is.

Just buy them from BACO. They do all the hard work and sell them at what I would say is a very reasonable price. I did decide to neck turn my cases which came about .004" to tight to accept a .447" bullet. I also annealed them before fireforming which may or may not have been necessary.

Even with the neck turning I think they are excellent brass. They make very consistent cases.

I also have some Jamison (JBA) brass that I paid a lot more for and they are excellent. The JBA are not being made at this time. The BACO brass is available though you may have to wait a bit to get your order filled.

I will add that I do NOT think the .44-77 is a good choice for a first BPCR, but if you are like me and enjoy working with something that is old and not seen on the firing line too often these days the .44-77 is an excellent choice. It was for me.

The one thing about the .44-77 brass is that once you have it and do whatever neck turning is needed it's not really any different that any other BPCR brass and should last a long time with reasonable care. The bonus being you have a .44-77! A#1 one cool!
Jim Kluskens
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Nuclearcricket
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Re: .50-110 to .44-77 viability

Post by Nuclearcricket »

Zac, I was kind of like you and wondered about forming cases. I did some research and what I found out was that previously BACO was using Winchester 348 cases to form their 44-77's. That brass has also becoem hard to get so they went to the 50 case. I also found out that it is not a simple resizing of the cases that needs done. The base of the case is larger than the 77 case and needs to be reduced in diameter. That is done by either turning the cases or using a high tonnage press to reform the cases. Something in the range of 40 ton press. Not something you can easily do at home. You can take 45-90 brass, neck size and fire form it to make the 77 cases. The rim will be a little smaller and a little thinner but they will work.
One thing that, to me at least, seems really sad is that now that the brass is all but unavailable, there seems to be a bit more interest in the 44-77. I have one, I like it, I have brass, I got mine while it was still available. And I am not giving any of it up.
If you have the hots for a 77, its not a bad choice but it will take more work to get it all working right compared to a 45-70. But the cool factor is there for ever. And when you pull the trigger on one, it definitely gets things done down range in a hurry.
Sam
art ruggiero
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Re: .50-110 to .44-77 viability

Post by art ruggiero »

don't waste time and money buy the baco brass and be done art
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J.B.
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Re: .50-110 to .44-77 viability

Post by J.B. »

If you're keen to try the 44/77 then I tend to agree with the previous posts in so far as the 50/110 based cases available through BACo are fine for the purpose. I secured some BACo 348 bases cases prior to my rifle arriving as there was nothing available and they worked fine. I then went to RMC ( Rocky Mountain cartridges) and ordered 2 if not 3 lots through them once I had my rifle. That brass is a perfect fit although it doesnt have quite the capacity of the drawn brass cases. The added benefit there..is ..if you want to .. you can really fine tune your case dimensions. They dont come cheap but they are a good product. They will also have the Shiloh specific dimensions in their software now. I was lucky enough to order some Jamison/ Captech brass when it became available..although I kick myself for not ordering more. Having said that...I've not lost one case from any of the sources mentioned. My latest purchase was from BACo. 50 cases based on the 50/110 after I trialled one case ( thats all that was left in stock at the time ) at the Quigley two years ago. Worked fine and fire formed nicely. If you're keen on the cartridge ( and it is 'cool' ) .. lay in 150 or more cases through BACo and get your Shiloh order confirmed. You wont be disappointed. There are more bullet mould designs out there now for this cartridge, both pp and gg, than there probably ever has been. Its lot of fun to shoot

J.B.
ps. did I mention it was cool...and yes its looks 'extra cool' loaded with pp. :wink:
"an experimental weapon..with experimental ammunition ? ...Lets experiment "
Rum River
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Re: .50-110 to .44-77 viability

Post by Rum River »

Another option could be Quality Cartridge out in Maryland, their website shows 44-77 in stock for $59.97 per 20.
The website has a notice that the state of Maryland has ordered them to close as part of Covid, but that they will continue to check email and voicemail.
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Dan O
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Re: .50-110 to .44-77 viability

Post by Dan O »

Winchester 348 brass is available from Starline as I type this. It is $1.65 a case for 500. Or $1.75 a case for 250.
Good luck,
Dan
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Luke
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Re: .50-110 to .44-77 viability

Post by Luke »

If you really want a .44-77, then go ahead and get it and be damned to the rest.

Howsumever: If you think you want a historical Buffalo gun, in an historical Buffalo caliber, and you don't want a 45-70 because you want something different and not so common, You could save yourself a lot of time, money, and have a lot of fun, with the old .50-70. Probably killed more big shaggys than any other caliber.

But, as has been said, get what you want, and the folks here will provide all the help you need. Just make sure what you want is really what you want! :wink: I'm just another equine with an opinion.

What kind of shooting do you see yourself doing with this rifle?
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Luke
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Re: .50-110 to .44-77 viability

Post by Luke »

If you really want a .44-77, then go ahead and get it and be damned to the rest.

Howsumever: If you think you want a historical Buffalo gun, in an historical Buffalo caliber, and you don't want a 45-70 because you want something different and not so common, You could save yourself a lot of time, money, and have a lot of fun, with the old .50-70. Probably killed more big shaggys than any other caliber.

But, as has been said, get what you want, and the folks here will provide all the help you need. Just make sure what you want is really what you want! :wink: I'm just another equine with an opinion.

What kind of shooting do you see yourself doing with this rifle?
Limber Up!
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Distant Thunder
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Re: .50-110 to .44-77 viability

Post by Distant Thunder »

Luke,

Excellent post! And I like to add a little about those two old cartridges.

I have 1874 Sharps rifles chambered in each of those, one in .50-70 and one in .44-77. They are both very good and old cartridges and both shoot very well. Of course the .44-77 (mine has a 17-twist barrel) has way more range capability than the .50-70. If a person was interested in eventually getting into competition where ranges would extent beyond 400 yards or so then the .44-77 would be the better choice.

The .50-70 would be less expensive to get up and running than the .44-77 and that's really just the cost of the brass. Both had a part in the history of the buffalo runners. The .44-77 was one of the early Creedmoor cartridges and if paper patch bullets are used it can be loaded up with as much as 90 grains of BP and a bit more if needed. The .44-77 could present a bit more of a challenge to get to it's full accuracy potential for someone just getting started in BPCR, but there are a good number of .44-77 shooters here that could help if that was the goal.

Both make excellent hunting cartridges for anything in North America, though a good backup might be advised if the game as a tendency to bite back!

That's a few things to consider.
Jim Kluskens
aka Distant Thunder
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Don McDowell
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Re: .50-110 to .44-77 viability

Post by Don McDowell »

Keep the bullet length to 1.3 in that Shiloh 44-77 and it'll shoot competitively to 1000. You can let the bullet length out to 1.35 if you don't do anything past 800.
AKA Donny Ray Rockslinger :?
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Distant Thunder
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Re: .50-110 to .44-77 viability

Post by Distant Thunder »

Now, Don, you're going to make me want a .44-2 1/4 with a 19-twist more than I already do! What kind of a support group is this anyway? :lol:

I would really like to see someone shooting a 19-twist .44-2 1/4 at a Creedmoor match. I guess there really isn't a reason a lighter bullet couldn't shoot well at long range as long as the length matches the twist and it is pushed along at a good muzzle velocity. The .44-2 1/4 should be able to move a 480 grain bullet out with some haste!

One of these days I hope to shoot my 18-twist .40-65 with it 382 grain pp bullet at Creedmoor ranges just to see if the bullet will get there. That would be about the same idea.

Why don't you come to Lodi with you 19-twist .44-2 1/4 and shoot with us in May. I'd like that very much. It would, maybe, save me having to buy another rifle. :roll:
Jim Kluskens
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PacRATT
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Re: .50-110 to .44-77 viability

Post by PacRATT »

Interesting and timely post.
I’ve just spent the afternoon forming 348 Win. cases to 44X77. I made a swaging die and after opening the neck I pushed a case in with a 10 ton press. One case ruined.
Next I tried expanding a case straight wall and stretching it. Then trimmed the body and run it into the die.
Second ruined case.
Lastly I expanded the neck to .447” and trimmed the body to .516 at the web. Ran the cases thru the die and loaded them. They fit the rifles camber but are .050” short.
The rim thickness is only .004” thinner than my other cases. I have 7 loaded that I’ll fire form tomorrow.
“ What could go wrong”
PacRATT
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Re: .50-110 to .44-77 viability

Post by PacRATT »

Interesting and timely post.
I’ve just spent the afternoon forming 348 Win. cases to 44X77. I made a swaging die and after opening the neck I pushed a case in with a 10 ton press. One case ruined.
Next I tried expanding a case straight wall and stretching it. Then trimmed the body and run it into the die.
Second ruined case.
Lastly I expanded the neck to .447” and trimmed the body to .516 at the web. Ran the cases thru the die and loaded them. They fit the rifles camber but are .050” short.
The rim thickness is only .004” thinner than my other cases. I have 7 loaded that I’ll fire form tomorrow.
“ What could go wrong”
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Don McDowell
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Re: .50-110 to .44-77 viability

Post by Don McDowell »

Jim, I would like to make it to Lodi again, was planning on going last year, but the CCCP bug buggered everything up.. Think this year with the other plans we have it's probably not going to work.. The big plans with this new rifle is to put one of Stephen Boruds hartford sights on the front to use for hunting , and scope for silhouette. Still haven't shot it, hopefully one of these days the weather will cooperate.
In that 17 twist you have the .434470 bullet from BACO cast 16-1 and wet wrapped in SC 55y shoots amazingly well.I was on my way to pulling a desert rat spotting disc at 1000 during the Phoenix match last year, but those Ben Avery diablo winds had a different idea. Did shoot an 80 something with 2x at 800 without a spotter.And it got thru the BPTRA match at 900 with out a miss, and that seem quite a feat in those winds at Byers. It shoots quite well in the 2 1/4 with the 19 twist out to about 800 but after that it falls apart, especially if there's much of anything for crosswind.
AKA Donny Ray Rockslinger :?
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