Just for Newbies ... mostly

Talk with other Shiloh Sharps shooters.

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horsefly
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Location: West Texas

Just for Newbies ... mostly

Post by horsefly »

Good morning, Board;
Some of y'all may remember me ... most of you probably don't. No matter. I don't compete anymore for a number of different reasons, but I do keep up with this forum and enjoy reading it. However, something has bothered me for a long time. Usually when a new guy comes on and asks beginners type questions, he is bombarded with all kinds of everybody's latest "gotta do's". Ya gotta do this or ya gotta do that.
So here, I want to sketch out the minimum differences about how to load a black powder cartridge versus loading one with flavorless powder. I want to get the new guy shooting. Then the rest of you can pour it on.
Now, I enjoy and do a lot of those things, too. But most of those things are not necessary to someone who wants to learn how to load a black powder cartridge. What concerns me is that deluge of stinky stuff that runs away at least some well intended beginners. If we make this thing look like black magic and tell folks that all their previous experience is worthless and all this other stuff is absolutely necessary, how many will join us? How many will grow into nuts like us who enjoy all those "gotta do's" that you don't really gotta do?
Would you have started this if you had thought that you had to have or do all the things that us nuts on this board love to tell each other all about and maybe do? Do I hear a few honest no's or maybe not's out there?
My assumptions are that the new person can successfully load a centerfire cartridge with flavorless powder and now wants to load a cartridge that is normally loaded with black powder and a lead bullet. Again ... these are the minimum things that are necessarily different about loading a good black powder cartridge. You can argue all you want to, but I want to describe generally accepted procedures.

CASE SIZING:
You can do it or not. As long as the case or resulting cartridge will chamber, case sizing is not necessary. It's the neck that needs the attention. Forget about "hard cast" ... please. The proper bullet is soft and the case neck should be sized (or not) only enough to hold the bullet ... not to deform it. Some folks (me, too) will seat the bullet by pushing it in under thumb pressure. The neck should never be tight enough to scrape or deform the bullet.
Others seat in a die and want a little (some) seating friction. Something loaded for hunting or carrying may need to be secured. If so, crimp it after it's seated. Sizing die makers always make their dies to reduce the neck either too much or waaay too much. So either don't size or else expand the neck enough so the bullet doesn't get hurt ... however you choose to seat it.

BULLET:
As mentioned above: use soft bullets meant for black powder loading. Hard bullets usually cause leading problems because they don't expand and seal the bore quickly enough. Then hot gas can blow by them and cut the bullet and/or deposit lead in the bore. Grease groove bullets should be soft and lubricated with a lubricant designed for black powder. Other lubes will shoot, but they're generally very hard to clean and seldom shoot well. Proper black powder lube should never have petroleum products in it.
Paper patch bullets are a somewhat different animal but you should still treat them carefully (as above) because they are soft, too.
If you are loading black powder and somebody offers you some really great "hard cast" bullets, call them dirty names and then run like hell. You don't want anything to do with hard bullets. Please understand that you are not shoving a jacketed bullet down the throat of a tightly sized .357 case.

WADS:
This is one of the confusing things for many beginning bp shooters. You don't use wads in white powder loads so why use them in black ... and if you do, how? Now, let's pony up and be real honest here: I don't know why. Wads have always been used in black powder and that may be why we still do it. We do it because we do it. Is it a holdover from patches wrapped around a ball? I still don't know. But it is the accepted practice so let's talk about it like we don't know better.
Wads are usually cardboard or plastic (LDPE) and are placed between the powder and bullet. A few shooters have very successfully used waxed paper and/or newspaper as wads. A few use none at all. Historically, wads have been stacked to take up extra space inside the case and then there are those who use grease wads. Grease wads and stacked wads have been mentioned and now they will be ignored. The usual practice is to place a cardboard or LDPE wad between the powder and bullet.
One note of caution here: don't ever use a wad unless the powder holds it firmly against the base of the bullet. If there is a wad with space ahead of it, it becomes a projectile when the powder ignites.
Some say the cardboard or LDPE wad protects the base of the bullet from the powder at ignition. Maybe. A wad placed on top of the powder as soon as it is in the case helps prevent spills and holds the powder in place for compression.
So you can load successfully without wads, but history and precedence says do it.

COMPRESSION:
Powder compression is probably the biggest difference facing the new bp loader. That part is sure 'nuff different from loading white powder. Black powder is extremely sensitive to its position inside the case. So the best way to insure its position is to fill the case "plumb up". That also makes sure the wad is held against the base of the bullet.
So far as compression, I feel that compression is simply a byproduct of using enough powder. Black powder is not nearly as energetic as the white stuff so we can get by with filling the case up and going at it. The best load will be somewhere between having the powder touch the wad up to (in my opinion) having it compressed as much as 0.200 or maybe 0.250 in a .45-70 case. Longer cases can compress more ... shorter ones, less. There are no hard and fast rules ... just guide lines.
To work up a load, choose a cartridge length and start with enough powder to touch the wad. Then keeping that length, increase powder (and as a result, the compression) as you work up. There is no magic amount and compression is not a part of the load recipe. In other words, do not try to get a particular amount of compression as a goal.
You will need something to push the powder and wad down so there is room to seat the bullet. Here you will be told, "don't use the bullet" ... "don't use the bullet". I will tell you, "don't use the bullet". Pushing on the end of the bullet hard enough to compress powder can squash it enough to make its diameter increase. If you don't push on your bullet hard enough to swell it out, have at it. Just understand what you're doing.
Here, you really do need a special tool. You can make a dummy bullet out of aluminum or steel or anything else hard enough. Load your dummy into the case and seat it. Then take it out and go on to the next one. Obviously the dummy has to be small enough to remove and place in the next case.
The easiest thing to do is buy and use a compression die with the correct stem in it. Compress the powder and then seat the bullet against the wad.
There it is.

I'm really interested to see the reaction to this piece. I firmly believe this is one good way to load a black powder cartridge with the least departure from loading with flavorless powder. Hopefully it will help a newbie or two make an easy transition from loading that other stuff.
So the most significant differences in loading are sizing the case, use a soft bullet, wads and compression. Lets catch the newbies first. After they're caught, y'all can pour that other stuff all over them!

Y'all be good;
horsefly
George Babits
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Re: Just for Newbies ... mostly

Post by George Babits »

Well Said Horsefly!!

I love to shoot and my only competitions with breech loaders, mostly Sharps and Remington, were at gong shoots. I never fiddle with things much. Did that one summer and it took all the fun away from the shooting. In my Sharps, a rebarreled original in 45-70, I shoot a 420 grain flat nose (Lyman 457193 I think) as this rifle is primarily a hunting rifle. I can easily smack a 40" gong at 1000 yards on a calm day with that bullet. I've never felt the need for fast twists and overly heavy bullets that are in vogue now. About my only concession is I do use a drop tube. Seldom mess with compression dies and all that stuff. But, I do confess to using a duplex load at times - - - mostly so I can spend my time shooting instead of cleaning.

This is supposed to be fun. Newbies should be encouraged to keep it simple so they can spend their time learning to shoot the rifle instead of getting so hung up on a bucket full of little details that may or may not be important, that they get turned off.

The one thing I do believe is that these rifles were meant for black powder and that is the way to shoot them. Messing with smokless (I like that "flavorless") loads in some of these big cases can be down right dangerous.

George
Salmon, Idaho
45bpcr
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Re: Just for Newbies ... mostly

Post by 45bpcr »

Horsefly,

I remember you, from the early days of Shooters.com
Back then, I was very much a "newbie"

Sage advice really hasn't changed much in our modern era of digital noise.
Hopefully some new comers will read it.

Thanks for taking the time to post that.

C
Live Free or Die, Death is not the worst of Evils
lahti35
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Re: Just for Newbies ... mostly

Post by lahti35 »

Great info! This Sharps newbie says thank you!
Ray Newman
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Re: Just for Newbies ... mostly

Post by Ray Newman »

As I live and breathe! The Horse Fly IS back! Maybe next we'll hear from Gunny and Uncle Miltie??

Anyway, well said and spot on.
Grand PooBah
WA ST F. E. S.

In real life may you be the bad ass that you claim to be on social media....
OneLegGuy
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Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2021 1:21 pm

Re: Just for Newbies ... mostly

Post by OneLegGuy »

Horsefly,
Thank you so much for the great info. I myself am new to all of this (Black powered rifles, reloading, ect). I'm almost 6 months into my wait with Bill for my Quigley in 45/110 and I cant wait to get word that its completed. I've wanted this rifle since I was a kid and finally got the ok from the wife to get it to celebrate 10 years since my injuries in Afghanistan. After reading more into it I know the 45/110 is going to be a learning experience. Im ok with that. Ive been looking for a hobby since medically retiring from the Air Force and thought this would be a great place to find it. I look forward to learning as much as I can from this group and more. I live in Washington state and was wondering if there is ever any get togethers or shoots out here where I can get to meet and learn from others. Thanks again for the great info.
TexasMac
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Re: Just for Newbies ... mostly

Post by TexasMac »

Hello Horsefly,

It's good to hear from you. I remember reading your Shooters.com posting/responses and learned a bunch from you and the others on the forum since I I was just starting to test the BPCR waters at the time. Since I have the complete Shooters.com BPCR archive (11/'97 to 6/'03) I just checked the dates. Your 1st posting was during April 2000 & I joined in during April 2001. It's amazing how fast 20yrs as gone by. Take care.

Wayne
NRA Life (Benefactor & President's Council) Member, TSRA Life Member, NSSF Member, Author & Publisher of the Browning BPCR book
http://www.texas-mac.com
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Don McDowell
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Re: Just for Newbies ... mostly

Post by Don McDowell »

OneLegGuy wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 4:48 pm Horsefly,
Thank you so much for the great info. I myself am new to all of this (Black powered rifles, reloading, ect). I'm almost 6 months into my wait with Bill for my Quigley in 45/110 and I cant wait to get word that its completed. I've wanted this rifle since I was a kid and finally got the ok from the wife to get it to celebrate 10 years since my injuries in Afghanistan. After reading more into it I know the 45/110 is going to be a learning experience. Im ok with that. Ive been looking for a hobby since medically retiring from the Air Force and thought this would be a great place to find it. I look forward to learning as much as I can from this group and more. I live in Washington state and was wondering if there is ever any get togethers or shoots out here where I can get to meet and learn from others. Thanks again for the great info.
You might want to grab a copy of the latest Black Powder Cartridge News, they carry a good listing of clubs from around the country. There's also a very good article by Rick Moritz on alloys in this last edition.
On the 110, 1f powder, and 16-1 alloy will be your friend. Altho some bullets do work reasonably well with 20-1.
AKA Donny Ray Rockslinger :?
George Babits
Posts: 442
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:53 am

Re: Just for Newbies ... mostly

Post by George Babits »

OnelegGuy,

Thank you for your military service.

From what I read in the Single Shot Exchange, there is a very active group of shooters in western Washington. Not sure just what they call themselves but it seems like Mike Nisbet is one of the ring leaders. If you want I can dig around in some old issues and see if I can find out what they call themselves. Wish I lived closer to them as some of their shoots sound like real fun.

George
Salmon, Idaho
ian45662
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Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:42 pm

Re: Just for Newbies ... mostly

Post by ian45662 »

What does one consider a soft alloy? Is 14:1 soft? How about 16 pounds lead 1 pound tin 5 pounds clip on wheel weights?
DAG4570
Posts: 94
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:29 pm
Location: Spokane, WA

Re: Just for Newbies ... mostly

Post by DAG4570 »

OnelegGuy

What part of Washington do you live in? I live in Spokane and we have a pretty good group that shoots here. We have two ranges here. One goes out to 600 yards and the other goes to 700.

Dave
Kurt
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Re: Just for Newbies ... mostly

Post by Kurt »

OneLegGuy wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 4:48 pm Horsefly,
Thank you so much for the great info. I myself am new to all of this (Black powered rifles, reloading, ect). I'm almost 6 months into my wait with Bill for my Quigley in 45/110 and I cant wait to get word that its completed. I've wanted this rifle since I was a kid and finally got the ok from the wife to get it to celebrate 10 years since my injuries in Afghanistan. After reading more into it I know the 45/110 is going to be a learning experience. Im ok with that. Ive been looking for a hobby since medically retiring from the Air Force and thought this would be a great place to find it. I look forward to learning as much as I can from this group and more. I live in Washington state and was wondering if there is ever any get togethers or shoots out here where I can get to meet and learn from others. Thanks again for the great info.
When you get that shooter bring it to the Quigley Shoot at Forsyth Mt. in June. Stay for a week or so and have fun with that rifle.
Bring a bunch of rounds and shoot them empty. :D
There are a bunch of fine people that will get you on the road.
The reason a dog has so many friends is because he wags his tail instead of his tongue.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"Winston Churchill
OneLegGuy
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2021 1:21 pm

Re: Just for Newbies ... mostly

Post by OneLegGuy »

Thank you all for the info. I'm going to look for that Black Powder Cartridge News magazine and do a lot of studying. I live in Bremerton, WA on the western side of the state. We've been here for a few years now and are still learning the area.
DAG4570
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Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:29 pm
Location: Spokane, WA

Re: Just for Newbies ... mostly

Post by DAG4570 »

OnelegGuy

Like Kurt said, let us know when you get your rifle and hopefully we will see you at the Quigley or maybe in Missoula Montana. Keep reading and learning all you can ahead of time. I am relatively new to BPCR myself and have learn a lot from everyone here.

Dave
jackrabbit
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Re: Just for Newbies ... mostly

Post by jackrabbit »

horsefly wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 11:12 am
Grease groove bullets should be soft and lubricated with a lubricant designed for black powder. Other lubes will shoot, but they're generally very hard to clean and seldom shoot well. Proper black powder lube should never have petroleum products in it.
Careful with the word "never." My favorite lube is 50% petroleum products and it has won many, many matches. It was developed by and currently still used by a many time national BPCR champion, as well as several other top shooters.
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