Lead free options???

[Kurt]

If your going to use a Bismuth bullet for hunting use a bullet shaped like this, PP or GG and seat it so that front scraper band is just short of the lead and you will be able to make as many follow up shots you need with out having a problem with the fouling. That bullet works fine with any hardness the bullet is.
With a .45 caliber you don't need to much worry for expanding, it will ventilate the boiler room with a complete pass through.

IMG_3240.JPG

A hard PP for target work you won't go wrong with this design. You will get full rotation and gas seal.

IMG_3740.JPG

[bruce m]

my own experience with barnes, and this is a lot of bullets on game, is that the fouling issue is an urban myth from guys who have not used them.
they do not copper foul any more than jacketed lead core bullets.
this includes a 7mm stw that runs 84 gns smokeless, and a 9.3x64 brenneke.
my suggestion would be to buy some and try them and see what really happens.
they perform their best at higher velocities, and have a velocity cutoff point at which they will not expand.
guys report them "pencilling through" when velocity is too low.
being spitzers,this can result is poor terminal performance.
the barnes for the 458 socom is meant to expand at much lower velocities.
copper fouling is not really an issue.
proshot copper remover gets it out with not much more than soaking, and there are now some foaming bore cleaners that are very effective.
when a spitzer bullet fails to expand it does very little damage due to lack of meplat frontal area.
and barnes bullet have virtually no meplat.
the bullet in kurt's top picture does have a good meplat, and in 45 cal and bigger would be a far better choice if failure to expand happens.
it also looks like it would carry a fair ammount of lube to keep black powder fouling softer.
the 2 7/8 case has plenty of capacity to hold the shank of that bullet, while still having plenty of powder.
the other thing with kurts bullet is that seated right it will allow cartridges to be loaded into a dirty barrel, assuming all bands are groove diameter+.
it actually looks like a bullet that would go well in a black powder repeater.
bruce.

[Kurt]

Bruce,
I use that bullet in my 95 lever action Marlin and it will empty the tube as fast as I can run the lever with black powder. Reload and do it again.

[bruce m]

thank you kurt.
i used a similar bullet about 400 gns in a marlin, but loaded to 2000 fps with smokeless.
it was cast very hard, but killed reasonably well.
in those days i knew little about alloys etc, and made an alloy about like lyman no 2.
the load killed a northern territory water buffalo.
it was not fun in a marlin 95.
bruce.

[bruce m]

kurt,
what do you think of this?
that bullet loaded with a fairly hard lube in the grooves, and a soft lube wad under it.
the 2 7/8 case would still allow for plenty of powder.
that bullet set up that way might be as good as it gets for shooting a single shot dirty as you might have to do when hunting.
the only thig is you might have to make sure the bullet diameter is sufficient to not allow gas blow by.
bruce.

[Kurt]

Bruce,

The 110 has more powder than needed. A lot of shooters that have that caliber use wad stacks to get it down for their comfort. I shot a 120 for many years and I probably still would if I would not have rung the chamber caused by a hang fire. It was a early pedersoli Quigley model when Cabela's first stocked them, I just had to get it. and it was a super accurate rifle.
I used the Lyman 121-PH like the two above, those two are a duplicate of the 121-ph I had Tom at accurate moulds make the proper diameter.
The Lyman 121PH drops from the mould small in diameter but I used it in the .45/120/3-1/4 for many years and I mostly shot with out fouling control and like you said I used a .023" over the powder a 1/8" lube wad and another .023" under the bullet and I never had a problem shooting "dirty".
I also shoot the .44-2.6 now and then loaded the same way when I bust bowling pins at 200 yds.
I have posted a picture shooting the .44-2.6 blowing the new case walls out at 200 yds and I shot 100 rounds dirty with an occasional blow into the breach and only 3 or 4 shots opened the 4" hole through the target using a similar bullet in the .44 caliber.
Here I dug it out. I shot this with the 25# .44-2.6 1.3" X 35" long barreled Shiloh.

IMG_1242_zps765223af.jpeg

[Kurt]

And the funny thing doing that, I used left over powder from several cans of different granulations from 1F to 3F mixed in a coffee can I save for doing this stuff and dropped from a Lyman 55 powder drop right into the cases sitting on the floor. And I go out of the way weighing powder for shooting matches.
Kinda makes me wonder if just dropping the powder is just as good as being annal.

[bruce m]

kurt,
if ever i should go demented, the last thing to leave my mind about you will be that target.

on another note, do not forget the lone ranger.
he used silver bullets.
not sure how california would cope with that.
metal detectorists might get a lot of headaches if it took off.
bruce.

[Don McDowell]

my own experience with barnes, and this is a lot of bullets on game, is that the fouling issue is an urban myth from guys who have not used them.
they do not copper foul any more than jacketed lead core bullets.

In my experience it is not urban myth, it did not take long to figure out why Barnes came up with their own copper remover.....
The Northforks did not have that problem. Don't know if they are still that way, as I bought mine from Mike Brady in Glenrock before he sold the company.

[desert deuce]

Wondering? About the possibilities of using a sabot as in the .50 Cal Muzzle Loaders? The sabot works in 30-30 & .308.

Moreover, if paper patching really does solve all problems there might be a solution looking in that direction. Maybe with plumbers tape?

[Kurt]

DD,
I think the plumbers call it teflon tape

[Don McDowell]

Wondering? About the possibilities of using a sabot as in the .50 Cal Muzzle Loaders? The sabot works in 30-30 & .308.

Moreover, if paper patching really does solve all problems there might be a solution looking in that direction. Maybe with plumbers tape?

Ross Seyfried did do an article in one of the gun rags about patching jacketed bullets.

[jackrabbit]

As far as Barnes bullets go, I personally know of 5 rifles that Barnes bullets caked with copper fouling so bad they wouldn't hold foot groups at 50 yards. It took somewhere around 50 rounds to do this and was almost impossible to get it all out. Accuracy never returned to what it was before. I hate them and will not use them. I think they are a product of magazines selling advertising for a product that was created to solve a problem that didn't exist.

[bruce m]

i have never had a problem with barnes as i said.
my barrels are well run in, so maybe that has something to do with it.
stainless and chrome moly.
the stw drives them out at 3400 fps with 84 gns powder and you would expect a problem there if there was one.
i am quite surprised to hear that you guys had issues.
until you guys i have only heard of someone that knew someones friends uncles cousin having an issue.
bruce.

[bruce m]

barnes have some bullets of 0.451" diameter that are designed for lower velocity cartridges, and might be able to be patched to suit a 458 barrel.
however there is still the option of kurts flatnosed bullet cast from a legal alloy.
being in california, i would guess you would not have to travel loaded for the great bears.?
bruce.