Thoughts on chambering

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Don McDowell
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Re: Thoughts on chambering

Post by Don McDowell »

Have no idea what the twist in that rifle was.
Not sure exactly where this bit about the 44's being harder to come by from, but the 44-straight are as simple to make cases for as running the appropriate 45 case into the size die and away you go. The bn 44's are bit bit harder to get cases for but not near as impossible as some think. Good bullet moulds are easy to come by, you're just not likely to pick up a box of bullets for them when you're at the local slobber shop picking up fodder for the 6.5 Jenners etc..
17 twist is good. But there really isn't any flies in the ointment with Shiloh's 18 twist, if you watch the bullet length.
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bruce m
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Re: Thoughts on chambering

Post by bruce m »

well you can't condemn the calibre if the facts are unknown.
rather than say it didn't work, you would be better off to ask what the problem is and work out why.
similarly with getting better vert with a 44 than a 45.
what was the reason?
and you can bet it was nothing to do with calibre.
bruce.
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Don McDowell
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Re: Thoughts on chambering

Post by Don McDowell »

Bruce you ought to get a 44 sometime and give it a go.
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bruce m
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Re: Thoughts on chambering

Post by bruce m »

there is no point don.
in all the history of long range black powder shooting, you are about the only one that seems to feel that the 44 can hold better vert than a 45.
to suggest such things would hold more weight if you could offer reasons why this should be so.
there is no magic in this game, just ballistics.
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Re: Thoughts on chambering

Post by Don McDowell »

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bruce m
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Re: Thoughts on chambering

Post by bruce m »

so what does that prove other than 1 guy on 1 day on 1 range shot it.
and what is it?
no one questions zacks abilty, but did he shoot a 45 as well that day in similar conditions?what were the other shots on the target like for vert? you have to include all shots to make a vert claim.
i could probably find some groups shot by kenny or brent or someone else too with 45s.
but i bet all of them say you need thousands of shots under similar conditions to compare.
vert at long range is a game of statistics if you want to make comparisons.
presenting 1 target is like the guy who has 1 shot and hits whatever and will not shoot again so as not to spoil the legend.
these guys got good by shooting a lot.
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Don McDowell
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Re: Thoughts on chambering

Post by Don McDowell »

Put a 44 barrel on one of your rifles and let us know what you think after you actually shoot one.
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bruce m
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Re: Thoughts on chambering

Post by bruce m »

don,
you avoid the issue by saying that.
this thread started because a guy is exploring where to start with long range blackpowder cartridge shooting.
telling him that 44s hold better vert than 45s is a thing in your opinion only, and the proof you present lacks substance.
and suggesting i get a 44 barrel is far less than proof.
i know that 40s can do it because i have gone the yard, and i know that the 45/2.4 can do the same for the same reason.
i have no reason to doubt that a 44 can be equally as good, but have no desire to try one.
i would rather shoot what i have more.
again i ask, why would a 44 hold better vert than a 45.
if you can explain that in a meaningful way we might all be enlightened.
bruce
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semtav
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Re: Thoughts on chambering

Post by semtav »

bruce m wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:14 pm
in all the history of long range black powder shooting, you are about the only one that seems to feel that the 44 can hold better vert than a 45.

bruce.
You are both full of beans. The 42 (.429) is the ultimate caliber.
Now don't make me get mine out and prove it, i dont have that many primers!!
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Re: Thoughts on chambering

Post by bruce m »

brian,
i remember you writing about that cartridge previously.
if your twist is fast enough for long range length bullets, and you use optimum bullet for that twist there is no reason it should not be competitive.
just on the subject of vert, i wonder how many people are absolutely in touch with how much elevation to add/subtract for a change in wind direction, and also in any crosswind that remains the same direction but changes strength.
i know i have yet to come to grips with this.
then you have to tactically make the decision, is it better to take no notice and possibly drop a point low or high, or take more time and make the adjustment for elevation as well as windage.
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Tomklinger
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Re: Thoughts on chambering

Post by Tomklinger »

Gentlemen,
Remington handled the “which is better “44 or 45” question in an interesting way. I have an original Hepburn Creedmoor chambered in “44 2.6.” The bore is .448. I questioned why the bore was so large for a “44” cal. Information showed that one year they would advertise it as a “44” and the next year it would be advertised as a “45”. With the larger bore it could go either way!
Now you have it!! A .44 1/2! :lol:
Tom Klinger
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Re: Thoughts on chambering

Post by Kurt »

Tom, Here I always thought Stevens did and said that. :lol: :lol:
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Don McDowell
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Re: Thoughts on chambering

Post by Don McDowell »

LOL Tom you have a good point there.
Brian I remember back when Dave Cook came up with that 44 pistol diameter idea, had the barrel and reamer made and to everyone's surprise Kirk built him a rifle.. As far as I remember you're the only one that had a rifle built after he did that.
Lastly yes Bruce I do feel the 44's hold better better elevation at distance than the 45's do. I base that on actually owning and using several rifles in both cartridges. Something you might want to try before you start nashing your teeth about something you have zero experience with...
This discussion starte with the OP asking about options for a Shiloh 77, and the possibility of a 40 cal for long range, because he already has a number of 45 calibers. It's my humble opinion and just that based on having been there done that and observation at matches the only viable option available would be the 40-90 bn, but the recoil might get to a fella by the end of a relay, not to mention a full match.
It's also my opinion that it's just a dang shame that 44's aren't an option in the Shiloh 77, because of the 4 44 caliber rifles I currently own and use, compared against the 7 45 caliber rifles , in 3 different chambers I own and use. At one time I had 5 40 caliber, now I'm down to 3. There's a reason for that.
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semtav
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Re: Thoughts on chambering

Post by semtav »

bruce m wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 12:36 am brian,

just on the subject of vert, i wonder how many people are absolutely in touch with how much elevation to add/subtract for a change in wind direction, and also in any crosswind that remains the same direction but changes strength.

bruce.
Sadly, I've spent so little time practicing the last couple years, my wind reading skills are almost non existent.
beltfed
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Re: Thoughts on chambering

Post by beltfed »

It can be surprising at what a person can do , even at long range with
a "girly gun" 40-65 with the right bullet

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