Original Sharps - things to consider

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hatman
Posts: 58
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:47 am

Original Sharps - things to consider

Post by hatman »

Hi All,
Looking for some wisdom...

I've been looking at an 1876 mfg 1874 Bridgeport 25 inch carbine in 50-70. While I have a Farmingdale 45-70 carbine, I've always wanted an original Sharps that I can shoot (at least a little bit). I only have pictures to go by for this one and it looks really nice and clean with a good bore. I'm by no means that knowledgeable about original Sharps so I wanted to run it by you folks what concerns should I have to consider before making a final decision.
Any reason I can't safely shoot BP loads? (I have a few hundred rounds for a Lone Star RB in 50-70 loaded with 63gr 2F and .515 450gr bullet.)
Firing pin reliability, replacement if needed? Other parts?
Anything else I'm too dumb to think about?
Thanks in advance for any wisdom/advice you could share as I dream about being a temporary caretaker of a piece of history.
bobw
Posts: 3841
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2004 12:52 pm

Re: Original Sharps - things to consider

Post by bobw »

Well there are a few things to consider.Is the gun in good mechanical condition? Tight breech? Good barrel? No pitting in the chamber? Firing pin in good condition with a rounded tip? The originals all used a 1 piece horseshoe shaped pin of a larger diameter than used today early cartridges of course were Berdan primed cartridges today use boxer type LR diameter. A replacement 1 piece original style pin is $200 + not all ways easy to find. Needless to say black powder is the safest to use in an original they did not have the quality of steel back then that Shilohs today are made of. Then there is the issue of the breech block the older guns did not have a gas check plate dovetailed across the back of the block covering the back of the firing pin so if a primer was pierced you would not get an eye full of burning powder and metal fragments. It did happen more than few times. Elmer Keith experienced it personally as described in "Hell, I was there". For awhile Sharps installed the dovetail gascheck plate in all guns chambered for cartridges with over 70 grs of powder. Pressure from the public induced them to manufacture all breech blocks with the gas check dove tail plate. If the gun your talking about does not have a plate it would be very wise move on your part to have it fitted with a newer style breech block from a shiloh while retaining all your original parts. Any irreversible changes that you make to a gun that has immense collector interest and value is Stupid period. I mean any wood or metal finish, stopping rust is one thing disturbing the patina is totally unacceptable. Changing anything from original to modern can hurt it 's potential collector value. As an investment that will return you in enjoyment it is superb, monetarily it should do better than a passbook savings account. It of course depends on what you pay and the state of the collector market. Bobw
bobw
George Babits
Posts: 442
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Re: Original Sharps - things to consider

Post by George Babits »

I have been shooting my original Sharps rifles for years with no more problems than I've had with the several Shiloh rifles I have. Needless to say, black powder is the only recommended propellent, although a duplex load is probably safe. In over 50 years of shooting original Sharps and Remingtons with black powder I can't ever recall having a primer pierced. I know my 40-70 SS original does not have the dovetailed plate over the firing pin. I can't recall if my 45-70 does or not. I think the most important thing is the condition of the bore and I would get a 3 to 5 day inspection period so you can see for yourself.

I have only broken one original firing pin on a Sharps and that was repaired by simply drilling the original U shaped pin out and putting a new pin in the hole with a little epoxy. I have done the same thing with a couple of Peabody rifles and a Lo Wall.

I think the first Sharps, a Hartford in 44-77, which I bought back in the '60s came with a broken firing pin. Original firing pins for the 50-70 conversion carbines were plentiful, but not quite the same. It was no bid deal to file it down to the profile of the 1874 model.

Since I just shoot for fun, hunting, and don't compete at all anymore, I much prefer an original to a replica. But if you are thinking smokless powder, forget an original. If the bore is good and the price reasonable - - go for it!

Regards,
George
hatman
Posts: 58
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:47 am

Re: Original Sharps - things to consider

Post by hatman »

Thanks for the feedback fellas. Good stuff to think about.
mike in va
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:40 am

Re: Original Sharps - things to consider

Post by mike in va »

First check to be sure the gun is in serviceable condition.

I have hunted for 40+ years with an original '74 44/90/540 using both black powder and smokeless (4759, 4198, 4227--using published loads in Cartridges of the World, etc) with no problem mechanically nor any degradation of their value or appearance. It's truly a 1" 100 yard gun. I have never tried it at the 500 to 1000 yard shooting I read about on this forum.
I have shot many original Sharps 50/70 carbines also with black powder and smokeless. As well as "52s and "53" with black powder only. I have never had a problem.

I have never had a firing pin break, nor a set trigger fail. Top quality stuff in my book.
I only relate this to give you confidence that one can relive that part of history using the same guns. There are a bunch of deer, turkey, and smaller game around here that would testify to their efficiency.

I don't want to own an antique gun if I can't shoot it. So the same applies to Maynards and Rolling Blocks. I shoot them all, repeatedly. I'm careful selecting loads and I don't try to turn them into something they are not, for that I have a Borchardt the CC Johnson re-barrelled into 22/3000.

Have fun.
Chief Beck
Posts: 780
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2005 8:51 pm
Location: Patton State Hospital

Re: Original Sharps - things to consider

Post by Chief Beck »

Mike,

I think it's a mistake to use smokeless powder in antique weapons originally designed for black powder. You are dealing with different pressures and how those pressure highs are reached, highly dangerous, yes I am sure you have heard this all before. I think anyone that goes the smokeless route with these original, antique rifles are taking a chance that eventually will not be in their favor and destroy a priceless firearm or worse maim you or kill you. I am no expert on this type of hand loading of trading powder applications none of us are. How many times have I read on these forums and others of people loading smokeless in their antique arm and blowing it up " it was always safe before"???, "I have always done it this way", "What happened"????
I like using the right powder for the firearm(s) in question, if you don't use black powder in in arms designed for it than you are missing out on how "it really was", the original feel!
Anyway, I could go on and on, my views will still be the same.

Dennis
"40 knots, no smoke"

"By God Woodrow; it’s been quite a party ain’t it?”
bobw
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Re: Original Sharps - things to consider

Post by bobw »

Well said Chief, well said. bobw
bobw
mike in va
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Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:40 am

Re: Original Sharps - things to consider

Post by mike in va »

Hey Dennis and Bobw,
Thanks for the concern and words of caution.
George Babits
Posts: 442
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:53 am

Re: Original Sharps - things to consider

Post by George Babits »

Yes, as one who much prefers to shoot original rifles over the newer production ones, I will have to agree that they are really for black powder. I've experimented off and on with smokless powder in them, but finally realized that I only have one forehead and one set of eyes. And, in cold weather I have had a lot of problems with smokless loads, so kind of wrote them off. Most of the modern copies can be safely shot with smokless powder, but what is the point. A person buys a rifle to relive an older period, but wants it to shoot new powder. Doesn't really make sense to me. I have several Shiloh rifles, one of which, a 40-70 SS, I do shoot some smokless powder in. I also use duplex loads sometimes , but have never seen any pressure data on them. I do know from chronograph data that a duplex load will shoot about 100 fps faster than a straight black powder load in the 45-70. When I get lazy and don't want to mess with cleaning black powder, I take out some of my 100 year old Winchesters that were designed for smokless powder and shoot them.

Shoot safe!!

George
Salmon, Idaho
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kenny sd
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Location: florida

Re: Original Sharps - things to consider

Post by kenny sd »

look, NEVER use smokeless in an original gun..of ANY kind.
the steel is basically coathanger steel. same thing. looks strong and it is NOT.
a Sharps will hold all the black powder you can put in and still be safe. 1 1/2 Swiss is the go to...
the old steel has imperfections in it. and you may not see them until you're in the hospital.

duplex loads are out too....if you want to shoot buy a Shiloh. they are safe...but not under all conditions either.

fill the case with BP, don't leave any air spaces, and you are good to go.

Ken
bohemianway
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Re: Original Sharps - things to consider

Post by bohemianway »

I have found that in many of the originals you need to use black to get a GG to bump up enough for the shallow rifling (early Hartfords and Borchart militarys).

Charles
George Babits
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Re: Original Sharps - things to consider

Post by George Babits »

Yes, many of the originals have oversized bores compared to what is reported in Cartridges of the World. For instance .403 diameter fort he 40 calibers. My original 40-70 SS Sharps has a groove diameter of .415 or so. I doubt that a .403 bullet would ever bump up that much. Simple matter to order a proper mould from Accurate moulds and not rely on inconsistent bump up. Many of the original 45-70s are also over sized. I think my 45-70 Meacham Sharps is about .460, and my Connecticut militia Peabody 45-70 is .462 or so. If you read J.S Wolf's "Loading for the 45-70 Springfield" you will gain a lot of insight into working with the oversize bores.

By the way, I would disagree with Ken on ruling out duplex loads. The idea is to use just enough smokless powder to reduce the fouling. not to make the rifle perform better. It doesn't take much. Always less than 10% of the full black powder load. That would be no more than 7 grains of, say 4759, in the 45-70. And, you also reduce the black powder charge accordingly and usually use a coarser granulation. I have shot thousands of duplex loads in my original 1874 Sharps, but that rifle was rebarreled about 50 years ago. I guess that equates to better steel than the originals. But, in a way, I suppose that is cheating a little.

George
Chief Beck
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Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2005 8:51 pm
Location: Patton State Hospital

Re: Original Sharps - things to consider

Post by Chief Beck »

George,

We have a few members here that are able to fire close to 100 rounds using straight BP and PP bullets without cleaning, no smokeless primer charges needed. Though, I have not attempted this myself yet. Just depends on how you load your ammo.

Dennis
"40 knots, no smoke"

"By God Woodrow; it’s been quite a party ain’t it?”
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